In this episode of "Yes, And with Avish Parashar," I welcome the insightful Jess Pettitt, a DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) speaker, author, and consultant. With nearly two decades of experience, Jess has empowered countless individuals and organizations to embrace inclusivity while navigating the complexities of human interaction with humor and authenticity.
We dive into Jess's latest book, Almost Doing Good, where she challenges the conventional wisdom surrounding DEI initiatives. She explores the concept of being “almost good enough” and encourages organizations to focus on progress over perfection. Jess emphasizes that embracing imperfection can lead to transformative growth and genuine connections within teams.
Key Takeaways:
The importance of asking genuine questions to enhance listening skills and foster deeper connections.
Understanding the three key components of effective DEI work: Prepare, Recognize, and Respond.
The necessity of making room for edits in our perceptions and judgments of others.
How to navigate the complexities of inclusion, especially regarding diverse viewpoints and experiences.
If you’re looking to implement practical DEI strategies in your organization or want to learn more about fostering an inclusive environment, this episode is packed with actionable insights!
Resources Mentioned:
Jess Pettitt's Website: jesspettitt.com
Book: Almost Doing Good
Book Club Registration: https://bit.ly/3XIQkhm
Don't forget to share this episode with your network, and be sure to rate and review the podcast to help us spread the message of "Yes, And!" Join us next week for more inspiring conversations.
Unedited Transcript
Avish Parashar
Hello, Jess Pettit. How are you?
Jess Pettitt
I'm excellent. I'm so sorry. I was listening, and I totally wasn't listening.
Avish Parashar
It's because I was such an engaging host that you were lost in the show.
Jess Pettitt
Well, what's funny is I was waiting for the record thing to go, but it's all teeny tiny over there. Okay. I'm so sorry. Do you want to
Avish Parashar
No. That's okay.
I'm 100% not redoing that or cutting it out or keeping this real. I literally, the last thing I said before I hit record was, ah, this is prerecorded. So So if we make a mistake, we can always edit, but it's much more fun not to.
So Oh my gosh. Okay. Yes. Hi. I love it because it almost ties into the topic of of what
Jess Pettitt
we're gonna talk about in terms of being imperfect and moving forward.
Avish Parashar
So, before we get into that, well, welcome to, my podcast, Jess. And, you know what? For, people who, don't know you and haven't read the show notes in advance or haven't read your book, I like to kick things off by just giving you sort of the opportunity to share the one minute, which is very hard for most people, especially speakers. But sort of the the one minute about Jess kinda especially what you're up to these days. We don't need to go in the whole bio. That'll kinda come out. But just tell us tell listeners a little bit about yourself and kinda what you're working on.
Jess Pettitt
Yeah. So I am also a speaker who does focus on DEI, and I bring comedy to the most controversial topics and our own personal failures largely because I think that will motivate us to keep doing good. That's who I am.
Avish Parashar
Fantastic. And and even though it's a a a pretty hot topic for people who don't know what DEI is, could you just define that?
Jess Pettitt
Absolutely. It's a good setup for doing that exact same thing. So the letters typically stand for diversity, equity, and inclusion. And the way that I like to look at it is, recognizing problems that you may not experience, but that doesn't mean that they're not problems for someone else. Being able to be prepared for whatever could potentially happen and then knowing the difference between a reaction and a response, doing something more informed. That's how I look at DEI.
Avish Parashar
Okay. Fantastic. And, so you've written a couple books, and we are one of the reasons we are chatting is you just came out with your new one called Almost Doing Good, which I'm holding up if you're watching the video. If not, it's called Almost Doing Good, and you can see it in Jess's background as well. And before we get into that, though, you have this is a new book, but you've been in this space for, gosh, how long?
Jess Pettitt
400,000,000 years, I think. So, I started fabulous
Avish Parashar
for that age. But
Jess Pettitt
Thank you. It's it's a cream. I started my business officially in 2,005, so it has been 19 years.
Avish Parashar
That's awesome. And this is not a I don't know how to say it. It's not an easy space to speak in, I would assume. And one of the things I think one of the reasons you've been successful, and and you've mentioned this before, is you're willing to just go in and kinda say the things to people that they need to hear and talk about the hard subjects without kinda, dancing around them. So how did you get started in this? Like, what kinda made you jump into to this field?
Jess Pettitt
Well, interestingly, is when I kind of bumbled my way into doing stand up comedy when I was living in New York, but I was working full time at NYU. And these two things seem very connected, but I think it gave me the opportunity to see how connected they really were.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Jess Pettitt
And what I believe I have done now or at least my approach, right, is that when we look at current events or what has happened in the news in the last 24 hours, whichever 24 hours that is Mhmm. Those are things that we have convinced ourselves are very hard to talk about. But those things that happen have happened before. There's a pattern there that's happening. And so we have convinced ourself to not talk across these very controversial topics as I believe an excuse to not have the real conversations with our kids, our partners, our coworkers, or even just total strangers in public. And so what I try to do is turn today and yesterday's current events into kind of a stand up routine with a point so that we can clear the deck Mhmm. From the polarizing topics that we like to think are the hard things so that we can realize we already have the skills to actually then have the conversations we need to have with the people in our own lives.
So, ultimately, it's about relationships and connections and feeling like a sense of belonging and helping someone else feel like they belong. But I didn't leave the humor behind because I think it's, 1, probably the best differentiator I have, and 2, humor is a great equalizer. So then regardless of people's politics or experience in an audience, we all like to laugh. So then now we have this thing in common, and we can build up and back down from there.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. I can only imagine too with a topic like I mean, I get it right from my because I, you know, humor background as well. I get, oh, we wanna talk about change, but the humor is a huge huge benefit. Mhmm. But I I can only imagine for your topics, like, it's it's such a differentiator. Right? It's such a hard thing to there's such a gray area about are you able to joke about it?
Like, how do you navigate that, like, tying humor to topics that some people might think are sensitive or offensive?
Jess Pettitt
I mean, ultimately, again, it's the, the language I use is it's the same skill set. Right? So, like, if I think of someone that I have pretty strong political disagreements with, if I enter that conversation trying to win or be right or make them lose and make them wrong. I'm not engaging in a conversation. I am lobbying fact weapons at them, and I am probably receiving fact weapons from them. That's not a connection. Right? And so can I listen in a way where I'm really prioritizing the connection with this human being instead of fact weapons?
And we do it all the time. Right? Like so I I typically open my keynotes with, are any of you frustrated by any human being or topic right now? And it gets this huge laugh because, of course, we all are. Mhmm. And then have you ever had a conversation that you cared about that even when it goes AWOL, you yes and the conversation. Right? Like, I can take your your words from you.
So I care so much about this person. I care so much about this topic that I don't know where we're going, but I'm in it.
I'm not leaving. And if you have the skills to not leave even though you don't know where you're going, but you also have the experience of, like, nah. I'm not using those skills right now. Then all I'm asking us is to become more conscious of when we choose to or choose not to use the skills we already have, which to me is being responsible for yourself and becoming more conscious of what you're unconscious of. That's
Avish Parashar
I love that. I love you brought the essay because as soon as you were talking about, like, lobbying the logic bombs and the argument bombs, I'm like, that's what I talk about with the basically saying you're saying yes, but to people, which is, hey. Let me tell you my point of view and why I'm right versus the yes, and. And and it's funny. My, my assistant, you know, we talk about marketing and whatnot. She's been throwing this at me for a while. She's Like, yo, DI is a topic you should speak on.
Like, it's the essay, and I see a big need for it. I'm like, I don't feel comfortable talking about it. Like, I could see how Yesen fits into that, but doing the things that you do, I'm like, you know, it's not my area of expertise. I'm gonna kinda stay in my lane. But even before you came out with your book, when I first started having ideas by doing a podcast, I made my list of guests, and you were on that list because I'm like, I see this tying into a lot of the messages I hear Jess saying. And before I get into the book, which is great, and I got way too many questions to ask about it, I do wanna ask you the reason I was gonna reach out to you is through all my years attending conventions, the National Speakers Association, and seeing speakers, there's a few times over the years that a speaker has said something from the stage. That line has resonated in my head and stayed with me where I still think about it and apply it.
And you fall into that category, and you probably know what I'm gonna say because I'm sure you've heard this before, is you did a 5 minute presentation. It was like a quick thing about 5 speakers. And you talked about how, like, you came out dressed, you know, in sparkly, things, and you're like, you probably all made a judgment about me. And she's like and you were like, that's fine. I'm not telling you wrong for me.
Well, I'll do it. But just like we all print a document about people, and I'm saying you can do that, just leave room for edits. And I thought that was one of the most powerful things because and you you do this throughout the book. You do this in everything we've talked about. You never make the other person wrong for their initial thought process. Mhmm. And I thought that was so powerful because so many times I feel like we've heard the message, like, don't judge people.
You know, be kind. So just before we get into the book, I I did wanna just ask you to if you could share a little bit of what that idea was about and how that maybe permeates your work, this idea of make room for edits.
Jess Pettitt
I think that, ultimately, the the if we pull the curtain back, right, what permeates my work is an first, an invitation for people to come in instead of have to, like, qualify to be involved. I try to really I really, really try to be an invitation in Mhmm. Because so many people feel judged and disqualified to engage in a conversation. Some of that is self motivated that and some of that is lived experience of where they weren't, like, like, cool enough or good enough or whatever, good enough, but just how that came out. Right?
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Jess Pettitt
So the invitation piece, I believe we make judgments and assumptions so that we feel safe and so we feel prepared. And everyone's life has taught them what they do, and that's how they've come up with the definition of what it actually feels like to be safe and prepared. And so to discredit what someone else needs, who am I to do that? You know? Not I'm not by any means a religious person, so I'm not saying that, like, judgment is reserved for 1 person, the sky daddy or something like that. But I need to know, can I cuss in this room? Can I not cuss in this room?
Is this outfit okay? Is this outfit not okay? Which jokes are gonna work?
Which jokes aren't gonna work? And, I mean, doing stand up is all about riding that risk line of reading the audience into the given moment. So being prepared and feeling safe is deeply rooted in your own lived experience of when you were not prepared and you did not feel safe. That doesn't mean you're accurate. It just means you've done what you've needed to do to feel safer or more prepared in a given space, but that doesn't mean that what what you have done accurately reflects the other person or the situation room. There are times that I read a room to be far more conservative than they really were, and I probably could have done some more risky things. But I didn't I didn't read that. Right? I wasn't right.
So part of leave room for edits is the generosity and the appreciation you have. I'm a big writer. When you give a draft to someone else, you're so grateful for their edits and their feedback. I like to say that I spend money to get away from my head. Right? I'm never gonna buy me. I'm never gonna be in my audience.
I desperately need those edits from the outside to find out how this is landing out there. So can I extend that space of curiosity, generosity, vulnerability, authenticity to other people? And I think that's where leave room for edits comes in when we're talking about judgments and assumptions.
Avish Parashar
I yeah. I love it. I think it's it's just such a powerful way of and it's so simple, and it's so inclusive. Like, it's it's it's awesome. So speaking of inclusivity then, let's kinda take it to the point you're at now. So you, you had a book earlier, which was good enough now. Correct?
Jess Pettitt
Right. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. So now you've come up with sort of the sequel or extension or whatever you wanna call it, the or the next book maybe is completely different. I don't remember.
But it's almost doing good.
Jess Pettitt
It I call it the prequel, actually. I'm doing it Star Wars style. So I wrote them order, but this is the prequel.
Avish Parashar
Got it. So this way I'll lay some of the foundation that then leads into alright. Perfect. So, for the listener then, could you kinda give us the overview of what this this book is all about?
Jess Pettitt
Sure. So if if we're doing it in the wrong order so I wrote Good Enough Now primarily for an individual to be able to reflect on their own life and kind of decide how their life taught them who and how to be, and is there a gap between what your life taught you and what you were choosing who and how to be in the world? Basically, that's what good enough now means, right, is that that was the premise. And, the the motivation of writing that book came from, people in my life who I'm grateful for for their, you know, challenging me, their friendship, their mentorship, etcetera. And I realized not everybody has access to people who are willing to work with you 1 on 1 to self reflect and decide who you wanna be in this world. So I wrote the book. Great. So in the 10 years or so that has happened since I wrote the first book, I have but the clientele that I work with has gotten much more corporate and working with leadership of organizations.
Simultaneously, I'm watching how, inside the United States, we have corporatized or capitalized on this human rights being given to organizations. So I'm kind of calling the bluff on organizations having human rights, corporate social responsibility programs, things like that. So the prequel to good enough now is that the organizational clients that I have, organizational leadership, they should be able to answer these same questions as an organization that is incredibly well resourced. So not necessarily, like, the CEO as an individual, although I have a book for that. But if we're gonna give human rights to the organization, the organization should be able to give voice of what its belief and values are, what's its ideal workplace culture, and close the gap between what they think it is and what people are actually experiencing. So I wrote almost doing good largely out of the frustration of working with these very well resourced organizations. What I realized was is that they are too scared to go first, and they're overly confident that they are not doing things the worst. Right? So they know they're not in last place, but they're too chicken to go first, and there's no momentum there.
It's a way to freeze. And so I took all of my clients' failures, and I wanna honor the good intentions and that those failures are in the right direction. Now let's keep going to try to build the momentum that's needed to almost do good so that our organization or individual leadership could be good enough. See how it
Avish Parashar
And that's I wrote that line down. It was one of the first things I wrote down was, organization have fear of being first, but just don't wanna be the last and then sort of and it's kinda easy to live in that space, but, like, alright. Well, I'm not gonna take the initiative. And as long as we're not doing it worse than anyone else, we don't need to worry about it, or we can deal with it later.
Jess Pettitt
Somebody's always doing worse than me, so I don't need to do anything.
Avish Parashar
No. And along along someone's always doing worse than me, and what I love is early on, you talk about your 5 assumptions. And the first assumption is, at best, we're already doing the second best thing, and no one is doing the best thing, which I think is a powerful statement, but I I think it's probably worth digging into a little bit. So could you kind of explain what you mean by that?
Jess Pettitt
Yeah. So there's a a a prophecy that I think I first heard it on a in a fortune cookie. That the best time to plant a tree is 300 years ago.
The second best is today. Mhmm. The third best is tomorrow. Mhmm. 4th best is, like, your next day off. Right? Like but that that I don't want you to lose the premise of the importance of planting a tree just because of how your calendar works.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Jess Pettitt
You know, unless you can quantum leap yourself, I don't know that we can go back 300 years to plant a tree, but that doesn't mean you should never plant a tree. Yeah. And so I'm, even with good enough now, I got a lot of pushback, and I get a lot of pushback on almost is that there's so much specifically in US culture, I think, that is exceptionalism, and you must be the first number one biggest, fastest growing, blah blah blah, whatever. And to me, that's got a lot of colonialism in it, but it it also has the the ability to be too late to try. Yeah. It's really working for a lot of organizations that have a ton of resources that really could do good work. And so can I give them permission to shoot for 2nd best instead of using best best as the excuse to not try?
Avish Parashar
And that's one of the things that probably jumped out at me right away because it is such an improv comedy idea of, I I do the same thing. It's like, look. If you wait to have it all figured out before you even take the first step, like, you're never gonna no one's gonna ever figure it out. In improv, it's about, well, let's take a step.
How did it work? Alright. Let's take the next step. Now in improv, you're doing it in a matter of seconds. It's like you say one thing, you say the next thing. Right. And to me, that statement and, essentially, the whole approach, it seems, in your book is very much about, like, what's like, don't wait till it's perfect.
Like, do something.
Jess Pettitt
Right.
Avish Parashar
But then learn from it. Don't, like, just pick up strategy out of the game. So this is what we're gonna stick with, but kinda iteratively learn, improve, and keep getting better and better. Right. Fair to say?
Jess Pettitt
Totally. I mean, it's it's funny when we talk about improv. So I did stand up, not improv. And when I tried to do improv, I failed miserably at doing improv because largely, I do not trust the bit. I don't trust other people. I don't trust the space. And so I I have this horrible memory of really having conjured up an idea of where a scene or a bit was gonna go.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Jess Pettitt
And the second person said the second thing, it absolutely did not take it there. And so I was forcing my lines to follow what I wanted to do, and I looked like I was on a different planet. Right? Because I wasn't yes ending. I was yes ending myself, and, like, okay. What's the next thing I could do that could take this garbage and turn it as close to the idea that I originally had? Because I was so Mhmm.
Sold that my idea was good.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. So that is the exact example.
I'm not you specific. That's the exact example I talk about when I talk about this idea of letting go and being in the moment is you get improvisers, and they'll get an idea, and the thing their partner responds with is different. And then they get which kinda brings an interesting point about, like, context and doing good and almost good. And it's like you're obviously very good about taking feedback and being flexible in the moment and you know? But in this other area, you were bad at it. And I think you're gonna bad. I think you're gonna you're gonna see that in, probably in in the world and in work.
There are probably people that are, like, in one area of their lives are very good at being inclusive and listening. So in their minds, kinda like, well, they're definitely not the work. Right? They're already doing it, but being unaware that how they're operating maybe at home or in their community is different than the persona they're bringing to work. But because they're doing it in one ear, they're not even aware that they're sort of not doing it all in this other. Is that something that happens?
Is that like a
Jess Pettitt
I just think that's, like, basic human behavior, and it it's our responsibility to notice when we're using the lever and when we're not using the lever. You know? I mean, my partner and I were talking last just yesterday, and, I was identifying something that I am very impatient about and that I really would like I I really would like to work on patients on this. It's probably related to, like, politics or something. So who knows when it was? I'm just impatient, and I want it to happen immediately. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chill out. Chill out.
So then, you know, in a different conversation context, he was trying to post something on a medium, website that he had written, and he couldn't figure out the technology, and it wasn't working. And he didn't know if it was compute his computer, the actual website platform, or his eyesight. Right? And so he was like, what am I missing here?
What is going on? And I was like, oh, no. No. I'll I'll play can I can I drive? Can I, like, play around and fiddle with it? And so it ended up being, copy and paste, but paste is plain text. Right? Like, not rocket science.
And he's like, the amount of patience you are able to apply to computers is so impressive to me. And so then I was able to say, like, you know, I didn't know if it was gonna work. And he's like, right. But you have the overconfidence that you're probably gonna figure it out.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Jess Pettitt
And so then I was able to flip it around that he has a knee injury, and he's so overly patient that, like, his anatomy is going to naturally recover. It drives me nuts because it'll be he'll he'll ice his knee for 2 years and then decide maybe he needs to do something else. And to me, that's not patience. That's just like losing track of time. Mhmm. Right? But he really is confident that it'll just kinda fix itself after a period of time.
So I I think what's important back to the question is that patients and impatience are not separate from each other, and it's our responsibility to figure out when we can deploy which one. And in the case of this improv set, what makes it even more ridiculous is that the idea I I so clearly remember how frustrated I was, but I'd come up with an idea that was about a porcupine going to space. And I don't know about you. That's kind of a random idea that I had come up with, but I was stick I was stuck to it and would not move from it. Well, shocking. Whoever I was on stage with at the time did not come up with porcupine in space.
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Jess Pettitt
Then I'm not building a bit for the audience's benefit. Right? I was, like, hunkering down, and I I think, eventually, I was, like, almost triangulating against my partner Mhmm. Between my idea and my humor. And who the hell do you think you are having some
Avish Parashar
partner then instead of being part of the big of an obstacle. Like, this is a brilliant idea I have, and you're blocking me from getting it out. And
Jess Pettitt
Right. And none of that is entertaining to an audience.
Avish Parashar
Right.
Jess Pettitt
Right? And so, like, that's where I think I fell into my ego more than I was able to be, like, deploy the humility needed to mutually cocreate something. Mhmm. And I see the same thing in my clients all the time. They're totally cool to cocreate until they're not. Yeah. And I what I wanted to do was to be able to articulate the times were not happened, but not might have been the 4th best option.
It doesn't mean that it was horrible. Even if it actually caused harm, it could still be the step in the right direction. And, those good intentions, shouldn't be completely deleted. They could be learned from. So now we're at almost doing good.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And I I would love to just keep talking about improv, obviously, but I wanna make sure we touch upon a few things in your book. No. But I wanna I got a whole page. We're not gonna get to everything I wrote down about your book because, you know, I maybe we'll have a second conversation at some point. So, before I get into a few specific questions, though, 2 quick ones for you. 1, who would you say is the ideal reader for this?
I think that, you know, like, I got stuff out of it, but, you know, I'm a solo business. You know, maybe I'm not the your target market for it. So just who's kind of ideally positioned? And then, because I don't wanna leave it to just the end. For people who do read the book, you had mentioned you're gonna do a free book club where people can actually discuss and get info. So could you just talk about those two things quick, and then I'll go into a few questions about the content of the book itself?
Jess Pettitt
Sure. I've I'm oddly, I think that the nimbleness is involved in the answer of who is the book targeted for. So I wrote the book as a therapy project because I was so frustrated of working with my CEOs. And so I wrote the book for CEO c suite leadership of organizations. If I wanna be really specific of that avatar, I I feel like there is a vortex happening between b corpse and really fast growing organizations where the founders still work
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Jess Pettitt
That are proposing that they care about the planet in some way. Right? Like to be a registered b corp means that you've gone through these extra steps to share that you have some obligation to stakeholders greater than yourself. When the founders still work there, when they go from 8 employees to 18,000 employees in a couple years, there's gonna be a gap between how you think this organization is working and how people are actually experiencing it. And I believe that gap is impacting their ability to do good out with stakeholders. Right? Like, that is who I wrote the book for.
Who is benefiting from the book seems to be human beings, which is a fascinating thing I didn't really expect. But, as the book released October 8th, and the number of people who are actually reading the book is a little stunning to me. Mhmm. And people that I would never have anticipated enjoying the process of reading the book. I try really hard to balance hard, thoughtful concepts and topics with funny stories and illustrations and humanize the difficulty of this stuff, and that I write I'm normalizing the complexity of it, and that it's disruptive of even what other DEI people are thinking about DEI, and I love that. Like, that's exactly kind of who and how I wanna be in the world. The book discussion that you mentioned, and thank you for mentioning it, I wanna do a series of free book discussions because I wanna be able to see what people outside of my cranium think about the book.
So almost doing good.com is kind of the website that'll have more information about those series. The first one is in December, and the idea is to have as many people from as many different industries or experiences, or you and I are solopreneurs. If we read the book together and discuss together what resonates, I can't know what's gonna be interesting to other people, but I need to be open to it. So I can't do it on an improv stage, but I can do it in a book discussion.
Avish Parashar
That's perfect. And, for I'll put the link in the, the show notes and on the website and everything. But, is there a place you can send people for the book club, or is it one of those long convoluted
Jess Pettitt
I turned it into a Bitly, but it's still weird to say out loud. But, the first version, starts December 6th, and you could register through, like, a Zoom webinar. You can register at, bit.ly, is bit.lyforward/3xiqkm. Very good.
Avish Parashar
You're only listening, then, that's where you go, but I will put the link in the notes so people can Yeah. Can get the and the best place to and the best place to get your book?
Jess Pettitt
Yeah. There there will be information as well at almost doing good.com, and you can buy the book at bookstores, Amazon, Kindle, and the audiobook will be out in January. So I'm trying to make it as accessible as possible.
Avish Parashar
Awesome. Well, then I do wanna go into the book a little bit to kinda whet people's appetite. I want people to read it because this book, it's it's it's packed. It's not, like, overly long, and you had mentioned, yeah, how long original draft was. But I was I was impressed because I feel like so many books I read. I don't read a lot of books on this topic, but so many books I read are just filled with, I don't know, like, rambling, ideas, theory, excessive numbers of stories. And this one, like, it's got, like, this perfect balance of, like, case studies, but here's what you do.
It's there's step by step. There's here's what you do.
So there's too much. That's why there's too much for me to talk about. So I just wanna hit on kinda the high level stuff. The first thing that I really like, in terms of step by step is for responding and for for dealing with this sort of thing, you have a 3 step like, basically, 3 categories of things to do, prepare, recognize, respond, which sort of is how you frame the structure of the book. So could you just touch upon, like, what those 3 kind of phases are in this process?
Jess Pettitt
Sure. If we stick with the normalizing complexity disruption thing Mhmm. Probably the the most accessible way that I can describe something that I think is often academically made to be so complicated. It's intimidating. Mhmm. Right? So I am deploying a 3 seated bicycle.
And, the reason why I think that's important is, 1, in comedy, rules of 3. Everything happens in threes anyway. But what I what I think is important here is is that I will tell you my take on prepare, recognize, and respond. But I wanna make sure that our default to a linear model that, like, you have to start at prepare is not what I mean because you have to do all 3 of them at the same time. I don't care which one you start with. One of them is probably gonna be more comfortable. You might even be better at one of them and worse at the other.
But like a 3 seated bicycle, you need all of them to really maintain momentum going in the right place. And the patterns of the failed case studies is that really one was used to, like, come up with an idea of some kind of new initiative to do, and it flopped because it didn't use the other 2. Right?
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Jess Pettitt
So I find preparation is where a lot of people are very comfortable because it's about, looking at bylaws or policies and procedures or creating a way of doing things, and it's documented, but you don't actually have to do it. You just have to discuss how you would do it, which can often land very hypocritical. I I think about, leaders that I've worked with who've been, you know, like, Avish, if you have any complaints, like, I have an open door policy, feel free to come to my office.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Jess Pettitt
So you come to my office, and you're like, I have a complaint. And then my response is, uh-huh. Feel free to come. It's a open door policy. Feel free to come anytime you want to. I am. I just showed up in your office.
Like, now you need to do something about it. Mhmm. Right? But, like, the open door policy is the preparation piece. Recognition, I think, is actually the one that I'm the worst at. Some people might be better at this than me, but it's the idea of recognizing a problem I don't experience. And part of that is listening like you don't know the answers, trusting other people, getting my own ambiguity and anxiety out of the way, and being able to hear someone else's experience that is wildly different than mine as valid?
Like, what does that mean? And then doing my own work to, like, get out of my own way. That's no one else's responsibility. Some people are very good at their own, like, therapy and self reflection work and journaling and, like, focus groups and all of those kind of things, but it still doesn't act, and it still doesn't apply. So recognition is that middle piece, and then the last one is really understanding the difference between a reaction and a response. And, frankly, most of the case studies are very quick reactions. And so when I was kind of categorizing them, I was like, okay. Yes. They kind of all fit in to this knee jerk reaction, but, like, can I focus in on the elements that are in recognition or in preparation to really honor the good intentions there?
But it didn't necessarily land as a solid response deeply rooted in the organization's workplace culture and its impact to its greater stakeholders, which is what response would be.
Avish Parashar
Got it. And you you say all 3 are important, but that one seems to be an off a knee jerk reaction. Would you say in your work with so many clients over the years that that's the one that people struggle with the most, or is it pretty even distribution that people kinda
Jess Pettitt
Oh, people are collectively a mess. I don't think I don't know anybody. This is this really actually angers a lot of people when I say this.
So there's your trigger warning. Excellent. But I don't know an organization that is consistently doing DEI work well at all. I can't think of 1. I can think of a couple that kinda had, like, a one off, like, that that worked. But then they canceled the program, or they screwed up something in a different category fairly soon after. So they're all pretty terrible.
The example that I use the most is after George Floyd was murdered, there was a huge amount of pressure to put a statement on your website. And so people would start calling me like, I need a statement. I need a statement. Mhmm. Well, they needed a statement because somebody else had a statement, and they didn't have a statement. Okay. What do you want your statement to say?
Oh, I have no idea. Just give me a statement. Okay. Well, if you don't know what your statement says, then you isn't there it increases the likelihood that your statement is gonna be hypocritical. Because if you don't know what it's gonna say, you're not doing anything in your own organization that's in line with the statement.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Jess Pettitt
So the statement itself is this new thing that in it that is a reaction that you feel peer pressured to get. Right? So you're recognizing the need to have some statement that you have no idea how that is relevant or not relevant inside your own organization, and you don't have a template. Right? Like, this isn't the first person who's been murdered by police, and is it your job?
Let's parallel it to March of 2020 when COVID struck. Every item you have ever purchased in your entire life sent you an email to tell you that they were going to be working from home. Mhmm. Right? Because it was so weird for the organization to suddenly have to deal with COVID. They felt obligated to do some kind of, like, marketing communications about it. So then we we, as consumers, got 100 of emails from, like, Dyson telling us
Avish Parashar
what's gonna be
Jess Pettitt
good at their company and, like, yeah. Thanks. Same z's over here, Dyson. Right? So, like, that reaction kind of happened to be super clear about what was happening, and nobody was prepared for the pandemic. So it landed.
It fumbled more. Right? So then how do we learn from the fumbles, see the good intentions in the fumbles, and then fumble less? We're not shooting for a touchdown. We're shooting for I cannot believe I'm using sports metaphors. We're we're shooting to be able to hang on to something. And often, the leaders that I work with, they think that that's something they're supposed to be hanging on to is gonna be provided externally.
And I have to be like, hi. You created this business. Mhmm. It's not coming externally.
It's actually you. You're the person that people are looking to to tell them what is the point.
Avish Parashar
Right.
Jess Pettitt
Supposed to bridge the gap.
Avish Parashar
And that's it's it's it's a powerful thing to say that, like, no one is doing right because there probably are a lot of companies that pride themselves on how good they're doing. What do you think that is? Especially when you say that, like, they do it well in one initiative and then it sort of fumbles again. Why do you think it is so hard for why why are Sony why is everyone doing it poorly?
Jess Pettitt
I think I think it's very sexy to assume that you're doing a really great job. You know? I use a lot of examples in the book from kind of the the the last client I worked with that I then was compelled to write this book. They won global awards for being the most inclusive place to work. And if you were a secular, liberal white person, it is a fantastic place to work.
Fantastically but if you were religious, it wasn't. If you were a person of color, it wasn't. If you're a conservative, it wasn't. If you're homophobic, it wasn't. If you're transphobic, it wasn't. But if you were cool with gay, lesbian, trans people, you had liberal politics, and you weren't a religious person, and you were white, and And those people all felt very entitled to have this fantastic place to work. So, I got called in because something was on an internal Slack channel.
The company had grown so quickly that they hadn't turned off the all employees channel inside Slack. So when you're, you know, Slacking 8 people versus 80,000 people across 11 time zones, that's a very different access point. Right?
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Jess Pettitt
So somebody responded to something during pride month and just said, I think this should be in the channel that you opt into to find out about pride month. And because it was so counterculture to not love everything about pride month, it en fuegoed everybody. And the CEO eventually told me that that Slack post cost more in productivity than COVID did.
Avish Parashar
Wow.
Jess Pettitt
Because they didn't know what to do. It took them 17 hours leadership to figure out how to log in to Slack to determine what to do or what to say to this, so they ended up hiring me. I ended up doing all these focus groups and 1 on 1 conversations, and that's where I had to tell people, like, your evangelical Christian employees do not feel like they can bring their whole self to work. Right? Their Jewish, Muslims, employees do not feel like they can bring their whole self to work. But because the leadership looked like themselves and their motto was bring your whole self to work, they didn't even realize who they were marginalizing Even though they're winning awards for these often oppressed groups, specifically gay, lesbian, trans, and neurodiverse people working in this field, they're winning global awards for this. But they were leaving behind all of these people.
And so when I challenged the leadership about it, they're like, oh, well, we didn't hire any of those people. And I was like, I just interviewed 280 people out of your 80,000 employees. That's not even a good random sample, and it is a pattern that shows up. So you can do good, and and don't stop doing the good, but also recognize that you are likely not doing perfectly great a 100% of the time.
Avish Parashar
Alright. Well, that's fascinating. And I I gotta we're coming to the end of our time, and, so I wanna respect that. But I and I I'm gonna ask you a question that maybe can't be answered in the time we have left. I think you said something that was that was, I think, very important. Because, yeah, normally, I would say stereotypically, when we think of DI, we think of progressive, liberal, inclusive of, you know, LGBTQ. But you're saying that, oh, the homophobes don't feel welcome, and the evangelical Christians feel don't feel welcome, which is but I stop and think about it logically, incredibly valid.
But from a DI perspective, almost sounds antithetical like, well, wait. We need to be inclusive of homophobes. Like, we need to be inclusive of people who maybe aren't. So I'm sure that comes up with you a lot. So how do you alright. Let me I don't have time. So I I don't know the question, but alright.
So how do you how do you respond to that?
Jess Pettitt
Yeah. I mean, I it does come up all the time, and I have to say that regardless of what side of an argument or a lot of this has been politicized, if you if if the first step of inclusion is who are you intentionally excluding? And, specifically, as a pinko commie liberal, that makes my head explode. I'm not excluding anyone. Well, is that true? Like, who are you instantly voting off the island? Because if your goal is inclusion, you don't get to kick anybody off and call it inclusion.
And so can we use the skills that we have learned in DEI and apply them to people that we disagree with? Now I get challenged on this because people might say that, like, well, the disagreement is about acknowledging myself as a human. Well, how are they ever going to start acknowledging you as a human if you are hitting them with the same weapons Mhmm. And weaponized language that they're hitting you with. Right? Like, that's not helping, and probably if somebody's making money off of it. So I I I know we're running out of time.
We're gonna have to do a part 2. But coexistence shouldn't be a goal. It's already happening. The goal is for us to catch up to the fact that we are coexisting with one another.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Jess Pettitt
But instead, we feel superior or make somebody feel inferior so that we can feel better about ourselves. And I think that's not good.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And it it's an incredibly difficult place to get, but it's so powerful. I I respect your your work with that. Alright. I'm gonna finish up, in a second. I'm gonna ask you one final kind of question. Before that, I'm gonna give you a chance to kinda reshare how people should find out and connect with you, get your book, whatnot.
But one thing I was gonna ask you about, but I won't, but I will say it because it'll be food for the thought for the audience that ties into what you just said. One One of the things that really stood out as I was reading it, you said, oh, after I speak a lot of times, people will come up to me and talk about them. Like, well, what about them?
Why aren't they doing this? And you what you say your response back to people is you tell people, well, what if you are someone else's them?
Jess Pettitt
Correct.
Avish Parashar
And I think that ties into this idea of, like, the you know, these people and so food for thought for you as a listener. If you wanna dig more into that, get Jess's book. But when you're thinking about, oh, but what about them? What if you are someone else's them? And it's just a profound shift in thinking. Yeah. So thank you very much, Jess.
If peep what's that?
Jess Pettitt
I was just gonna say it would be lovely if I could change other people's behavior, but I can barely keep track of my own behavior. Mhmm. And so, yeah, let it would be lovely. It'd be lovely if they did something different. But I am somebody's they, and so to make that dream come true for somebody else would mean I would need to be responsible for my own behavior because somebody sees me as they, and then I actually am changing, which gives them the opportunity to possibly change themselves to be more inclusive. So
Avish Parashar
I love it. Yep. Focus on what you can control.
So, 2 quick things. 1, let let us know where, remind us where can people find about the book and also about you if they're like, oh, this would be really useful in my company or organization.
Jess Pettitt
Sure. Almost Doing Good is the best website for the book. You can get it anywhere books are sold. And then for me, you can go to good enough now. com. Jess Pettit. Most people can't spell my last name, so, they all redirect to the same place.
And, it's super honored to be here. And I I'm so honored that you actually read the book. And I'm like, let's just keep talking.
Let's keep talking.
Avish Parashar
I know. I could keep going here. That was a great book, and, it was I mean, you probably get this as well. It was one that I will admit I wasn't particularly looking forward to reading because but I had the idea in my head. I'm like, oh god. What is she gonna tell me I'm doing wrong? But it was so accessible with so many to dos, and as you said, the tone was great.
It wasn't like a textbook on our DI. It was like so whatever position you're in, I would recommend the book. Check it out. I'll have the link to, I'll post the links to the almost almost doing good to Jess's website, to good enough now and also to the book club.
Which way, digging deeper. Final question for you, Jess. I try to end every, interview like this. I do what I do because I honestly believe the world would be a better place if everyone just started with a default mindset of saying yes, and instead of yes, but. You just switch your default, have an open mind, I think the world will be a better place. What is a small thing that you believe would make the world a better place? One small thing that people can do that if everyone just did this, the world would be a better place.
Jess Pettitt
I deeply believe the best thing you could do overall is ask someone a question you genuinely do not know the answer to because you will learn how to listen like you don't know the answer.
Avish Parashar
Oh, I love it. So not pretending you don't know the answer, but actually ask something you know nothing about to get to practice.
Jess Pettitt
Avish, what color socks are you wearing?
Avish Parashar
I am wearing white socks right now.
Jess Pettitt
How fascinating. I did not know that. Right? But I'm not asking you a question I know the answer to.
Avish Parashar
I love it. So just get in the habit of what it feels like to genuinely not know the answer. That's I love it. That's great. Thank you. Yeah. So thank you, everyone.
Check out Jess's book. Check out Jess's website. Sign up for the book club, and, be sure to join us next week. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't yet, and, be sure to join us next week for whatever the heck I'm gonna talk about because I don't know when that next episode's coming out. Thank you very much, Jess. Had a great time, Chad. We'll do it again soon.
Jess Pettitt
Absolutely. Bye.