Human connection is becoming a competitive advantage - especially as AI, automation, and digital overload keep pulling us away from real relationships.
In this episode, I sit down with Thom Singer. Thom is a keynote speaker, community-builder, and CEO of the Austin Technology Council, and we talked about Human Interaction (H.I.) in an A.I. world. We unpack why “networking” isn’t something you do once in a while, it’s something you live, why introverts may actually have an edge, and how the best opportunities often come from relationships you started building years ago.
We also go into Thom’s personal story of navigating a mental health crisis during the pandemic, what it really means to ask for help, and (because Thom is Thom) the wild decision he made to start doing stand-up comedy at 52 - and what that taught him about resilience, confidence, and being better on any stage.
Key Takeaways
The term “Networking” has baggage - focus on human connection and intentional relationships instead.
The best time to build your network is before you need it (“dig your well before you’re thirsty”).
Introverts often make better connectors because they ask more questions and listen more deeply.
Meeting someone once doesn’t make them “in your network,” it makes them someone you’ve met once.
Community and career resilience grow when you help others without keeping score.
Asking for help isn’t weakness, it’s leadership (and sometimes the turning point).
Stand-up comedy is “public speaking on hard mode,” and it can sharpen every other communication skill.
Relevant Links
Thom Singer’s website: https://thomsinger.com/
Thom’s TEDx page (including his talk about asking for help): https://youtu.be/KtuIppR84MY?si=PaQHjNJI8lLd0LVC
Thom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomsinger/
Thom’s podcast: “Making Waves at the C-Level” (and archive of older episodes): https://thomsinger.com/podcast/
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Unedited Transcript
Avish
Hello, Tom Singer, and welcome to the podcast. How are you, sir?
Thom Singer
I am doing great. Good to be with you.
Avish
Oh, it is fantastic. I am looking forward to this very much. The problem we're going to have on this is, as I was sort of going over your stuff and reviewing, you've done so many interesting things that I'm going to be very disjointed and wanting to talk about all of them.
Avish
So, but to start with the area of focus, for people who are unfamiliar with you, could you just give us a quick one-minute sort of who you are and what you do overview?
Thom Singer
Absolutely. And it is true. If you were to look at my resume, I have a pretty eclectic background. I like to call it a very interesting journey. But I from 2009 forward until the pandemic, I made my living doing one thing, and that was as a professional speaker speaking at corporate and association events on the topic of sort of human interaction and why, as the world gets more into technology, we have to pay more attention to the relationships that we build.
Thom Singer
And then, as you can imagine, and as you probably know, being a speaker the pandemic wasn't kind to people who stood up on live stages and spoke. And everybody had always said, "Oh, you should have multiple streams of income. You should be doing coaching. You should have a consulting thing." I was sort of a traditional keynote speaker. I gave a speech, I got a check, I went home, I went to the next gig, and it worked for 12 years until it didn't.
Thom Singer
And so during the pandemic, I also took on a job as the CEO of an organization called the Austin Technology Council, which is a 33-year-old organization that is sort of a chamber of commerce for tech companies in Austin, Texas. And I was sort of hired to rebuild it and kind of reinvent the community since I speak about community. And so now I do both. My speaking business is back, and I run this small local nonprofit.
Avish
That is cool. And so you find that because being a speaker, I know, you know, you're pulled in a lot of different directions. You got to travel, you're away, but you find that you want to—how do I phrase this? You're doing that because you want to keep doing the Austin job, or you still, because of the pandemic, you like still want to have something there that's stable and secure? Because I can only imagine it's challenging having both a full-time speaking business and operating as CEO of the Austin Council.
Thom Singer
Yes. And you're actually probably—that's a very insightful question that a lot of people don't pick up on. So yeah, I mean, what happened is, is I got into this organization three and a half years ago with this charge of reinventing it. And the deeper I got into it, the more I realized that there was going to be a long-term thing. So I'm three years into sort of a five-year rebuild, and I don't want to walk away from it.
Thom Singer
I put in a lot of time a lot of blood, sweat, and tears are into it. And the community is starting, you know, to react right away. The new guy shows up and they're like, "Man, whatever." so I want to continue what I'm doing, but at the same time, my real passion has been my speaking business. I wanted to do it for a decade before I got into it.
Thom Singer
And now that it's back, I mean, I'm not doing as many gigs as I did in 2019, but I make more money from speaking than I make from running a small nonprofit. So it is a careful balance that I have to make. The good news is I can do a lot of things remotely that I do.
Thom Singer
There are certain things I have to be in Austin because it's a face-forward job. So I have to be out in the community. So there are certain times I can't travel, but usually I can do most of my meetings and dealing with sort of behind-the-scenes stuff from the road. So it doesn't really impact.
Thom Singer
If I'm giving a speech in Chicago, I fly to Chicago. I work all day from the hotel room. I have dinner with a friend. Next morning, I give my keynote. I work at the airport and fly home. So I don't even have to take a vacation day because I'm easily working six hours on the road. So it's a delicate balance, but for right now, I choose to do both.
Avish
That's cool. Now, and this is not at all what I anticipated this conversation going, but this made me think of something. And I don't know how you felt when you took that job, but I had a similar thing happen to me way back when in '08, '09, right? My speaking business, it was never super great at that point anyways, but then it was—and I came across this job.
Avish
It was a good fit for my skill set, and they actually were flexible. It's like, "We only need you 30 hours a week. You're paid by the hour." So like, if you—I could just tell them, "Hey, next week I'm going to be gone for two days." I'm like, "All right, no problem." And the moment I took that job, it felt like such a defeat, like I was conceding because I had to get a job.
Avish
And it took me like five months, six months to realize you are currently in the sweetest position. You have a job you like, doing work you like. That's totally flexible. And I don't know if you experienced that, like when you first took the job where you're like, "Oh, man," and then you—or was it immediate, like, you know, are you more like a little bit enlightened than I am where you're like, "Oh, this is like I'm adopting this. This is great."
Thom Singer
No, it definitely was a rough time. And look, you know, I'm a middle-aged guy in America. What I've discovered is maybe I self-identified a little bit too much as my career over the course of my life. I know I'm the only middle-aged guy in America whose self-worth came from his job. So when the pandemic hit and it sort of wiped it out, and I kept throwing spaghetti against the wall trying to see what would stick. And it wasn't that I was earning no money, but, you know, I went from a solid executive-level salary to about less than a quarter of that or about a quarter of that.
Thom Singer
And at the same time, my youngest kid got into an Ivy League college. And I actually had friends who were like, "Well, she can't go to Dartmouth because your business is, you know, the pandemic is winding down your business." And I thought, "How do you tell a kid to work for 18 years to get into one of the top, you know, 10 schools in America?" And, "Oh, dad's having money trouble. You can't go." So I just decided we'd find a way through it. And it took a couple of years before I took the job with the council.
Thom Singer
But I went through kind of around that time, a couple of years into the pandemic. I'll be super transparent with you. I went through sort of a mental health crisis. I mean, I went through sort of a little bit of a collapse. And I didn't tell anybody about it at the time, but it was bad and all that. And so I sort of took the job and then found out that the organization needed more work. And I was kind of all alone. It wasn't a really large staff and someone left. And it just got kind of too much for me.
Thom Singer
So no, it wasn't like, "Hey, look at this. It's all wine and roses. I'm going to go out and do this." It was, it's been a bit of a struggle, but once I started being able to own up to the fact that, yeah, you know, it all got too much for me. And I got over sort of the crisis part of the mental health problem. The other side of it was, is that while the job doesn't pay what it should or what I'm worth, it had insurance benefits. It gave me a base level. And so right away, I didn't have that understanding.
Thom Singer
But now I kind of feel like you did that, "Hey, I've got the best of both worlds. I've got flexibility in my schedule." And, you know, I'm able to do both. And I think that's something that, you know, I'm trying to tell other people out there that it's not a failure if you have your own business. If you go and work part-time somewhere or you find another opportunity, you know, it's not a failure. In fact, it's actually a victory that you're owning up to the fact that my job is to be able to support this family. And, you know, my job is to pay my mortgage and, you know, make sure I'm saving for retirement and things like that. And so if you're a real entrepreneur, you're going to have some downturns. And the real entrepreneur gets scrappy, doesn't roll up in a ball and cry. So once I got over the roll up in the ball part, then it was all good.
Avish
Well, it's so funny because as we talked about beforehand, like I talk a lot about change and whatnot. And, you know, one thing I will, one of my main messages is like when a change happens is like, are you looking backwards saying, "Yeah, but why did this change happen?" Or, "Yeah, but are you looking at the opportunity saying, 'Yes, and here's what I can do?'"
Avish
Ironically, as I feel so many of us speakers do at times, we need to take our own medicine. So in that instance, like even though I teach this stuff, I found myself lamenting that I had to do this. And it wasn't until I could reframe my mindset to look at the opportunity and the positives that I was able to find that opportunity. I think so many of us when we're going through a change are just like, we're just wishing it didn't happen.
Thom Singer
Oh, for sure. Absolutely. I mean, I wish I had a time machine and I could cure the pandemic before it started, but I don't have that power. So, you know.
Avish
We all wish we could do that.
Thom Singer
The change happened and I'm able to say yes to this job and yes to, you know, being a speaker. And, you know, finding the balance is sometimes hard.
Thom Singer
I'll be super honest. This fall, I had a lot of keynotes and I had a lot of responsibility in the job and I had a two-week vacation. And all of it sort of became a perfect storm for eight weeks. And I just had to say, "It's okay."
Thom Singer
And I talked to the board and I said, "Look, we've got all this stuff going on here. I've got stuff going on here. And I've got a pre-scheduled vacation that's been on the books for 18 months. We're just going to have to get through it."
Thom Singer
And together, you know, people picked up the slack. My board chair ran an event, which normally as a volunteer isn't what he does. You know, and some other people attended some things in my stead while I was away on vacation. And then I just had to work really hard when I was, you know, doing keynotes around the country during a very busy time for the organization.
Thom Singer
Was it perfect? Absolutely not. Did I get out the other side without, you know, a mental health crisis or feeling like the world was on my shoulders? Yeah, I got through the other side.
Avish
Well, I think this is ties into something then watch your TEDx talk, which is awesome. But at the end, you know, one of the things you tie it back to is how with the mental health crisis is one of the things that you did that you were most proud of was simply asking for help, which it sounds like here you're able to do. And I, you know, for people, everyone will put a link to it. Just definitely watch your TEDx talk. But I'd love just to kind of hear you sort of talk a little bit about this idea about how hard it is for people to ask for help and how powerful it was for you when you finally kind of let yourself do that.
Thom Singer
Yeah. And I'm really proud of that TEDx talk. You know, I've given over a thousand paid speeches, you know, over 17 years. And I'm really proud of that number. I've worked really hard to be able to say, "Wow, I've actually earned a living, supported my family, did all this stuff with it."
Thom Singer
But I think that speech is the one I'm the most proud of. It's not what I talk about as a paid speaker per se, but I talked about the fact that, you know, I embraced change as I got older, where maybe when I was younger, I was a little bit more. And then one of the stories I talk about taking up running at 50 years old. I talk about taking up stand-up comedy at 52 years old, but then I talk about going through kind of this mental health challenge.
Thom Singer
And it's not something I would have signed up for, but on the other side, like all these other things, jumping off tall things, on the other side of it, it's like, "Oh, I'm stronger because of it." And I think that's something we have to realize when we're going through change is, yeah, it sucks. It sucks to have the rug pulled out from under you. It sucks to have your career derailed. It sucks to feel like you're a failure.
Thom Singer
But if you can push through to the other side, and there might be some valleys, I mean, I'm, again, I wish I could not have had the mental health crisis, but my daughter said to me, "Dad, I think you're more empathetic to other people's problems because of it." And God, that has hung in the back of my mind for a year since she said it to me because one of the things you're not supposed to do with somebody who has serious depression is say, "Just think happy thoughts." That's like the wrong advice.
Thom Singer
And I had someone in my life, and I didn't share it with a lot of people, but I had someone in my life who I shared it with. And they're like, "I have bad days tomorrow. Why don't you try to get up and say, 'I'm going to have a good day?'" And I laughed because I knew that wasn't what you were supposed to say. So I just ignored the advice.
Thom Singer
But on the flip side, that might have been something I would have said to somebody going through it if I myself hadn't been through that. So I think we have to look at the hard parts of our journey as, you know, as important as the good parts of our journey.
Avish
Yeah, it's so powerful. And it's funny, just for transparency, I had some, I think I was misdiagnosed with depression. I think I went for an ADD diagnosis and we tried that. But then he's like, "I think you're depressed." So I was on an antidepressant for like three years. It wasn't severe for me. But when I was like talking with some people, I had a similar experience where like one of the friends I had who I shared this with was like a mastermind person. And she's like, "Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, you know, we'll have like parts of our job we don't want to do." I'm like, "Yeah, I just told you I was diagnosed with depression." That's not where it was. So I told him, "But you're right. Like it's, I've probably been on the other end of that. My sausage experience shapes us."
Avish
Now you mentioned something in there I want to talk about, but before I get too siderailed, I definitely want to talk about the speaking business side of your life, which it's about human interaction and connection. I think the umbrella term at least before would have been networking. I don't know if you've kind of brought in that, if that's what you talk about. So what is your, I guess, why are people hiring you? Why are they like, "We need Tom Singer to come in and talk about XYZ because we're dealing with ABC?"
Thom Singer
Absolutely. Well, going back to when I went full-time in the business or even before when I was doing it part-time, I never used the term networking because it has preconceived notions. There are people who think it's a fluffy topic. There are people who think they know how to do it, even though they repel everybody they meet. There are people who think it's the softest of the soft skills. So I don't use the term. I don't hate the term. I don't think it's a bad term, but I don't use it like in my marketing or from the stage because there are people in the audience who will roll their eyes. I learned that early on.
Thom Singer
So I've always called it human connection. And then that sort of developed into human interaction. And one of the reasons for that is a couple of years ago, I changed the title of the speech to human interaction, HI, in an AI-driven world. And I will tell you that that's when my business took back off is that title, you know, essentially tied into the hottest topic out there, which is AI. And yet I'm not an AI speaker, but because I work for the technology organization, I interview AI leaders in Texas. You know, I have lunch with them or I'm on a panel with them or all this. I'm meeting people all the time.
Thom Singer
So I understand and I know what's happening. And we're about to go through some major disruptions in our society because of AI. If they figure out quantum computing, fasten your seatbelt because those two things combined, it's just going to get bigger. So I understand all that. But I believe the secret weapon is the relationships that you build. And Harvey McKay, who was, you know, back when you and I got started in the speaking business, he was one of the hottest authors, speakers out there. He wrote a book called Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty. And it was a book about networking. And basically, I always joked, and I know Harvey, I always joked that that book could have been 400 blank pages because the title itself says everything. Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty.
Thom Singer
And nowadays, what's happening is, you know, coming out of the pandemic, a lot of younger people didn't do this. People think, "Oh, well, if I have likes, links, shares, and follows on LinkedIn and Twitter and everything else, then they're part of my network." And the reality is, is that you have to cultivate relationships and you have to be there willing to help other people without keeping score. So I've been talking about this now for over 20 years, and it's suddenly becoming a very hot topic again. 2008, 2009, 10, and 11, when I started, it was a super hot topic because of the recession. Well, now we have this documented epidemic of loneliness and disconnection in our society. And so the topic is becoming really hot again. And that's why my speaking business has bounced back.
Thom Singer
So I really believe, like I said, I don't use the term networking, but I don't have a problem with it. It's the connections you build along the way that lead you to opportunities. And sometimes they're small, sometimes they're big, sometimes you don't even know they're happening. But I mean, you and I met 17 years ago, and here I am on your podcast. Somebody could be listening to the podcast who's like, "I need to know more about this guy." And they hire me or they bring me an opportunity or we become friends or whatever. That all goes back to that meeting you 17 years ago. So I really believe that that matters and that you can't discredit people. You can't prejudge. Well, you know, Avish talks about improv tools in business. I mean, how important is that to me? Somebody could discredit that, like they might the networking term. Well, that's stupid because you don't know how powerful that person is or what opportunity they're going to bring you and everything else. So I really try to teach people that, well, you can't be friends with everybody. Don't prejudge people and look at their successes as partially in some way your own successes. People in your network do well and you help them. Take a little pride in that.
Avish
Yeah. It's, well, number one, it's funny about the Harvey McKay thing because literally in real time right now, just yesterday, I interviewed someone for my podcast. Exact same topic came up. I brought up Harvey McKay with the exact phrase. And it is right. And she said the same thing, right? Right now, because so many people are like losing work and the economy and everyone's starting now versus continuing.
Thom Singer
So that's exactly right. People right now, and it's funny because there's like a young speaker who thinks he invented this idea of building relationships who's just getting started, who talked to me and I'm like, "Yeah, I've been talking about this for 20 years." But it's, you have to be doing it now because if we do have an economic upheaval or if just individuals get laid off or if society gets disrupted, your opportunities are going to be there.
Thom Singer
And you can't show up at a networking event like the Austin Technology Council. If you're a programmer, you know, and you show up and you're looking for a tech job, you've never been, you don't know anybody. You can't show up with a stack of resumes and walk around going, "Hey, I'm looking for a job," because nobody gives a damn. So what you have to do is be part of the community, help other people show up, and maybe one of those people will be there for you.
Thom Singer
There's no guarantees. It's not like everybody asks me, "What's the secret sauce?" I do a lot of training for lawyers on how to get more business. And so they'll be like, "Well, what's the minimum series of things I have to do in the community to get more business in my book?" And I'm like, "Well, I don't know."
Thom Singer
You know, there's not like a formula. Like you go to this event, you go to that event, you send a handwritten note, you take somebody to lunch and they give you a deal. It doesn't work that way. But I tell everybody, "Look, networking is not a verb. It's a lifestyle choice." And so you don't go, it's not a verb. You don't go networking. You have to live this idea of, "I care about people and I look for reasons to say yes."
Thom Singer
And maybe say yes and. But you know, there are so many people in our business who go like, "Oh, someone asked me to do this thing, but I didn't see the value in it for me, so I didn't do it." Well, I actually do the opposite. Instead of looking for reasons to say no to trying things, I look for reasons to say yes. Can't say yes to everything, but I look for a reason to say yes.
Thom Singer
Somebody wants to go to lunch. I look for a reason to figure it out. You know, whatever it is, there's a conference that might be interesting to attend. I look for a reason to be able to be there. Because you don't know when you do those yeses, you know, where it's going to lead you to that person.
Thom Singer
Every opportunity that I've ever had in my life has come from a person. And so therefore, cultivating relationships with people, it's invaluable.
Avish
So let's talk a little bit about that. Because from what I've known about you, maybe it's just because of your topic, I've always sort of assumed you're more of an outgoing extrovert. I assume many people in your audiences would identify as shy or introverted, you know, present company included. So what is your sort of advice or process? Because some people can just walk into a room and walk up to someone they don't know and start the conversation, and others will just rather, you know, kind of stare at their drink or look at their phone the whole time. So what's sort of your advice or process for how those people can get going with it?
Thom Singer
And you're right. I am an extrovert. And the extrovert-introvert thing, it's not that they don't like people. My wife is a pretty serious introvert. She loves people one at a time, two at a time, three at a time, not 500 at a time. I walk into a room of 500 people and I walk around talking to people. I get energized for the next day. I'm kind of on top of the world.
Thom Singer
You know, introverts will do that same thing and they need to go to the spa the next day and just put headphones on for like six hours. So introverts get their energy from little downtime, some solitude. Extroverts get it from there. But it's not about how you build relationships. That has nothing to do with if you, you know, like people or if you can build relationships.
Thom Singer
And here's the secret for people like you and other introverts. And I speak a lot to lawyers, bankers, accountants, and engineers. That is a huge portion of my speaking business. And those people are going to typically trend a little bit more to that introverted left brainy side of things. And so the secret is, is that I'm going to tell you this now. Listen close.
Thom Singer
Introverts are better networkers and relationship builders in business. And people always look at me like, "What? No, the extrovert's the life of the party." Our society has done a disservice. We celebrate the extrovert. We celebrate the person who's the life of the party who can stand up and give the toast, the person who walks around and introduces everybody. We celebrate that person.
Thom Singer
But the truth is that those who are more introverted are better at it because when two people meet, the introvert doesn't want to talk about himself, doesn't want to take over the conversation. So they're going to do two things. They're going to ask more questions and they're going to listen. And those are the two ways that you build real serious relationships.
Thom Singer
So as an extrovert, I still have to work on that. It's really easy if someone gives me a runway. It's really easy for me as I'm doing right now. It's easy for me to talk for a five-minute answer. But if you're going to build relationships, you need to get the other person to talk. And they've actually done surveys where the person who talks the most, the other person doesn't like them as much. The person who talks the least, the other person loves them.
Thom Singer
And so what you want to do is you don't have to memorize an elevator pitch about yourself. I mean, you should know how to talk about yourself when the time comes, but you should memorize three or four questions that when you're in that setting get other people to open up. And when you do that, they're going to like you more because they get to talk about themselves, whether they're an introvert or an extrovert. And you're going to get the information.
Thom Singer
I make the joke that, you know, when an introvert is listening, they're thinking about, "Oh, how can I connect that dot to somebody I know?" or "What can I ask them next?" When an extrovert is listening, they're thinking, "What can I say when it's my turn?" Yeah. So that's why I think introverts have, if they embrace it, and society hasn't let introverts embrace it, if they embrace it, they're better at building real relationships. And it's not a numbers game. It's about finding the right people.
Avish
So where, obviously, Dig Your Well Before You're Thirsty, ideally everyone would have started five years ago, but as you so astutely pointed out, there's no time machine.
Avish
So let's say someone's like, "All right, I want to start building the human connection now." What's the best way for them to get started? Is it like to find a networking meeting, like a chamber of commerce or professional association? Or is there, like, how would you advise someone to sort of start digging their well if they're sort of brand new to this?
Thom Singer
So it really depends on who they are, kind of what their personality and likes are, and then what do they do for a living? Why do they need to have this, you know, human interaction, connections, you know, why do they need to build a brand and a reputation, and why do they need that circle of influence? So, you know, if you're a sales guy, it's different than if you're, you know, a tech programmer who might need a new job in a couple of years. So there's different reasons. So figure out who you are, what you do, and why you're doing it and who you want to know, right? So you need to know what type of people do I need to get to know.
Thom Singer
Then you look either in your industry or in your local community for where are the groups that meet. So some of these might be online. Some of them are in person. Some of them, if they're an industry, you go to the conference. You know, just looking at our industry of speakers, I'm amazed at how many people who aren't famous, I mean, famous people have a different thing in the speaker world, but how many people who don't go to the National Speakers Association? And one woman told me, "I don't want to go where my competitors are. I just want to go where there's a room full of meeting planners." And I'm like, "If you do that, it's like you're a wolf who hasn't eaten in a month, and there's sheep, there are people with a pork chop around their neck, right? And you just want to go run and get that pork chop."
Thom Singer
I always say the secret to becoming a professional speaker is having a lot of speaker friends. And the way you do that is you get around them. Well, that's why you go to the conferences that a group like the National Speakers Association puts on. If I was a plumber, I'd be an active member of the National Plumbers Association. If I was a locksmith, I'd be an active member of the National Locksmith Association because you build friendships with people. They're not your competitors. I mean, I've known you for 17 years. I don't think I've ever been down to the final two with you. And in fact, there's only one speaker I ever competed with more than about three times in a thousand speeches where, like, who else are you talking to? Talking to this person. Well, that person actually, she lost a deal to me. And so she called me and said, "I want to know who you are." And we're great friends. I had dinner with her recently.
Thom Singer
So your competitors aren't your enemies. They're actually a great source of opportunities because success leaves clues. So get around people who are successfully in your spot. So that'd be my first thing is identify two or three groups locally and nationally that you can participate in. And then you have to show up at these events, and then you have to participate. So if they have an online forum, you know, just go in and compliment people. You don't have to be the know-it-all. Just go in and compliment, "Oh, that's good advice," or something like that so that people see your names. Because meeting someone once doesn't make them part of your network. Do you know what meeting someone once makes them?
Avish
I don't know.
Thom Singer
Many people say an acquaintance. I don't even think it's that.
Avish
I was going to say an acquaintance, yeah.
Thom Singer
Yeah. But meeting someone once makes them someone you have met once. And there is a huge difference between someone you've met once and someone who you have cultivated or are cultivating a long-term and mutually beneficial relationship with. So if you go into meeting people and realize, "I have to be around them seven to ten times, not before we're friends, but before they even notice I exist."
Avish
Yeah.
Thom Singer
Then you realize it's going to take you a couple of years in each of these organizations just to get noticed that you exist.
Avish
Yeah, it's funny. And I've always sort of hated networking or using it as a marketing tool. And I'm now, again, I didn't dig my well before I was thirsty. So now I'm like, "All right."
Avish
And I mean, you know Michael Goldberg. I don't know if you're friends with him or not, but he's a good buddy of mine. And so he's been a big networking guy. So he's been bringing me to his networking events and whatnot. And it's been good.
Avish
But even this conversation is a reminder of like, "Oh yeah, yeah, it's more of a..." And it is so many times just, I call this your persistent yes, but it's like the thing your little voice keeps telling you you should do it, but your logical brain's like, "Yeah, but." And I think networking and then human connection may be my kind of next little yes, but I need to address.
Thom Singer
Well, and again, just using the speaker business as the thing, there's a lot of people who are great at smiling and dialing. They pick up the phone and they make five calls a day, seven days a week. And they're all working a lot. And I admire that. I'm a little more scatterbrained. So it's like I want to do that. I have a list I should be pinging all the time. And I do it sporadically because I'm honest about who I am. I know myself.
Thom Singer
However, most of my business has come from word of mouth. And that is meeting planners who've seen me speak somewhere. It's people's wives or husbands who saw me speak somewhere and their husband or wife is in charge of their corporate conference. It comes from other speakers. Back before the pandemic, and my business is still growing back. It's not, I don't have data to really show anything because it's been a little sporadic the last couple of years. But before the pandemic, 20% of my business came from referrals from other speakers in NSA. And you know, that was a seismic part of my business for a decade. So having those relationships and letting people know who you are and what you talk about and why you do it well, that's part of it.
Thom Singer
If you're the best kept secret in your industry, no matter what industry you're in, you know, you're going to have hungry kids. You can't be the best kept secret. And one of the ways to not be the best kept secret if you're not famous or you're not the leader in your industry is be someone who shows up and supports and participates and is a cheerleader for the whole industry because people will notice that.
Avish
Yeah. And for me, I find the more I get involved, so, and part of that's probably the shyness thing and like needing like permission, but it's like getting on the board or joining a committee suddenly, like I meet people deeper, I have a reason to be there. And like a lot of those things go away. And yeah, it's a good reminder that this is something we all need to do.
Avish
So let's, I do want to pivot a little bit because it's definitely something I wanted to make sure we had a chance to talk about. And you touched upon it real briefly. And that is that at the age of 52, you just decided to start doing stand-up comedy. And I remember seeing your social media posts about starting. I'm like, "Oh, that's great. You're taking a stand-up class." And then all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, I did, you know, I'm in seeing now, no, I hit my 100th gig." And I think at your TEDx talk, you said you did 160. So just take us back to the beginning of that. Like what was the impetus for that? And what was it like just starting to do stand-up?
Thom Singer
So I got to take you farther back. When I was 16 years old, I grew up in Los Angeles. You only had to be 16 to get into the local comedy club in Pasadena, California. It's one of the grand old famous comedy clubs that you hear about. It's called the Ice House. It's still there in Pasadena.
Thom Singer
And you only had to be 16. So my friends and I, we would go, or it was a great place to go on a date with your girlfriend in high school. It was still a two-drink minimum. You couldn't order drinks, but you know, you'd get a couple of Coca-Colas or a Virgin Strawberry Daiquiri with a big umbrella in it or something, you know, Hawaiian punch for everybody. But I would, at the end, they'd say, "Oh, on Thursday night or whatever night it was, we have an open mic night here if you want to try it." And I would, on the drive back to the town next door where we lived, I would be like, "Oh, I want to go do open mic night. I want to go do open mic night." And I never did it.
Thom Singer
And I also wanted to be like an actor, like a sitcom actor when I was a kid. And I grew up in LA and I never even tried. I didn't know anybody in the business. I never did anything with it. It just got filed away. So I think that's one of the reasons I became a speaker is it gave me that chance to be on stage. And I think that's why I liked it.
Thom Singer
But anyway, fast forward to 2018 and I made a new friend through NSA, a guy named Drew Tarvin, who you know. And he's an improv guy and a stand-up guy. And he has a TED talk that's been watched like 10 million times on Humor in the Workplace.
Avish
He's also a previous podcast guest.
Thom Singer
And he's been a guest on this podcast, which, you know, that's awesome. So anyway, I was going to be in New York at the time he lived in New York. And I called him and said, you know, "Let's go out and get a drink while I'm there." And he said that, A, he's not a big drinker. And he goes, "Two, the night you're here, I'm going to open mic night. Why don't you come with me?" And I vividly remember saying, "Oh my God, that'd be so much fun. I would love to watch you work on new material." And he says, "Tom, that's not what I'm inviting you to do. I'm inviting you to write a five-minute set." And this is like two weeks out.
Avish
Wow.
Thom Singer
Write a five-minute set and you know, everybody gets on, you put your name in, they draw names at this one, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, "Oh, Drew, that ship sailed." He goes, "Didn't you tell me when you were 16, you used to tell your friends, 'Oh, I want to do open mic night'? When you were in college, you used to go to comedy and you'd be like, 'I want to do that.'" And he goes, "And one of the things I talk about in my speeches is try new things and put yourself out of your comfort zone a little bit." And he literally goes, "Aren't you the guy who talks about try new things?" And I remember saying to him, "God, Drew, throwing my own content back in my face, I'll do it."
Thom Singer
So I worked on it and I wrote it. And then I met him for dinner beforehand and he looked at my script. I read it to him and he goes, "Did you just take the funny parts out of your speech?"
Thom Singer
And I'm like, "Yeah." He goes, "This is speech humor. Let's get some punchlines." So he helped me come up with some punchlines like an hour before the show.
Avish
Wow.
Thom Singer
And I got up and I did it. And here's the thing. I wasn't horrible. I had really good stage presence because I'd been at a microphone a lot of time. One of the comics came up and said, "Was that really your first time?" And I'm like, "Yeah." He goes, "That's the best first time I've ever seen at a comedy club." And I said, "Well, I'm a professional speaker." And the guy goes, "Oh."
Thom Singer
Like he totally blinked. He was giving me this compliment. He's like, "He goes, you really weren't that funny, you know." So, and Drew told me, he goes, "Look," he goes, "we could teach you to be funnier, but the stage present goes a long way. So you have a leg up."
Thom Singer
So I got home to Austin and my wife said, "How was the stand-up?" And I said, "It was interesting. I think I could learn a lot. I'm going to do 100 open mic nights." And I remember we had a high school kid at the time. She said, "You can't be going out at night. You're already on the road." At the time I was on the road 100 nights a year. She goes, "You can't go out on like a Tuesday night. You got to be here, spend some time, have dinner with Kate and stuff. You know, she's only going to be here for two more years. You got to do that." I said, "I'll do it on the road." And so when I would be in like Chicago, I would go online. I'd Google Wednesday night, open mic night, Chicago.
Avish
Oh, that's so interesting.
Thom Singer
Los Angeles, San Diego, Washington, DC. There wasn't always one. Kansas City only had two open mic nights a week and they weren't the nights I was there twice. So I'd find it. And then, you know, I always said I would have never been able to do this if Uber hadn't been invented because some of these were in bars that were a little remote. And so I could have taken a taxi to get there from downtown, but how would I ever get back? So because of Uber, I was able to do it.
Thom Singer
And when the pandemic hit, I had done 98, 97 open mic nights. So my goal was do 100. I wasn't going to become a professional comic. I'm still not going to. And so the pandemic, I didn't do it for a year. I tried some online ones. I didn't count those. I didn't like them. So Austin opened up a year later. Texas was, you know, one of the first states to be fully open. So open mic nights started again about, I don't know, 14 months later. And so I was like, "I got to go. I got to go do these three." And then I just kept doing it.
Thom Singer
And this year I didn't do very many because I had a lot of work and a lot of travel. But I'm at 231 open mic nights and I've been a featured comic in 12 shows where I've been paid. And by paid, I mean like $25, $50. But like my brother said, that's more than I've been paid. He goes, "So I'll call you a professional." But I bring that up because I keep doing it. I've gotten back into it. I'm taking a class right now and stuff.
Thom Singer
But it's made me a better speaker. It's made me better at other things I do because I'm more playful and I'm more confident because, I mean, you've done this. You get up and give a speech and it's not your best day. It's still good. People still say, "Oh, I learned something." People still take some notes. If you're off at an open mic night or even in a show, people don't laugh.
Thom Singer
I mean, you know, the other night I got back up after several months of not doing it and I used a piece of work that my biggest laugh, my best joke. And I said the punchline and there was like 40 people in the audience and like nobody really laughed. And I was like, "What?" You know, I literally go, "Wow, that's my best joke. Nobody laughed." But because that's happened to me, I'm better in other situations in business where things aren't going my way. So it's made me more resilient, more playful, and more confident.
Avish
Yeah, it's funny. I'm obviously an improv guy and people think, "Oh, improv and stand-up, they're diametrically opposed." And I've done stand-up as well. And I still, I think everyone should take improv for a lot of reasons.
Thom Singer
Yes.
Avish
I think stand-up is the purest form of public speaking there is. Because literally, like you said, there's no point, right? You know, everyone always jokes like, "Oh, you don't tell jokes as a speaker. You tell a story. You tell a funny story." Because then if people don't laugh, you still told a story and it doesn't matter.
Thom Singer
Yeah.
Avish
With jokes, if it doesn't work, it bombs. And it's.
Thom Singer
But if you have a funny story, if you can deliver it, not as a bit, but if you can deliver a funny story, you'll get booked again. Because if the audience, like I have a couple spots in my keynote where I get really good laughs and I know that's why I get referrals because people, that's what they remember.
Thom Singer
But you're right that people, like I tell people, "Oh, I started doing stand-up." I tell other speakers, "Started doing stand-up." And they go, "Oh yeah, I did improv." And I'm like, "I'm not dissing improv. Improv is a hard thing and it's a good thing. And boy, you learn to think on your feet like nobody's business." But they're not the same thing.
Avish
No.
Thom Singer
And I think stand-up is just the hardest use of the spoken word that exists. And.
Avish
Well, when you said, when you said five minutes two weeks out, I'm like, "Well, I've done stand-up before." I mean, I think one time, I guess, and this is probably even on the conservative side, I think one to two hours per minute is about like the effort I put in for like this one set I did. So two weeks out to be like, "Oh, just do five minutes if you've got nothing prepared." Like that's a lot to get ready for.
Thom Singer
And like I said, I mean, I'll be honest, I skate on the fact that I have stage presence sometimes. You know, I can get up and not be as funny as I could be, but I'm not, it's not crickets because I can keep an audience engaged. But I'm trying to learn to be funnier, right? I'm learning to write tags. I'm learning to do more callbacks.
Thom Singer
But that actually helps me like in a business setting. I was at a kind of an important business meeting on the other side of my life. And at the end of the meeting, I called, I did sort of a, it wasn't a joke, but I did a kind of funny callback to something that started the meeting. And everybody laughed. And it was, it sort of put a bow around the whole meeting. And someone said to me later, they go, "Were you thinking of that the whole time?" And I'm like, "Nope, nope. I just, you know, I just saw it as a perfect callback that was going to make the meeting kind of end on a good note." And I'm like, "I'm not sitting there writing bits while we're talking about, you know, planning for the next quarter."
Avish
Yeah. It's what your mind starts working that way though. And it is such a useful, even if you're not a humorist, it's such a useful tool in your toolbox. So why are you still doing the open mics now? Is it just because you enjoy it or is it a goal or is it still something you think is going to help your speaking?
Thom Singer
Probably all of the above. I'd like to get good at it. I'm okay at it. Like I've been in like 12 shows. And, but you've been to comedy shows. The first speaker gets like seven or eight minutes. The next one gets like 15 and then the headliner gets a half hour. I've always been the first one.
Thom Singer
You know, I'm good enough to open a show and keep, make you go, "Okay, this is going to be a fun night." But I would like to get good enough that I could, you know, do the headlining stuff. I don't want to be a touring comic. I mean, I'm too old, you know, to go down that path. But I'd like, I'd like anything. If you're doing it, I want to be better at it.
Thom Singer
And so I'm taking a class right now. And I really like the instructor. He's written for major sitcoms and for major comedians and lived in LA for most of his career. And he's teaching this class and he sees right through my bullshit. He sees through, he literally told me, he goes, he goes, "You're hiding behind your skill as a speaker." And I was like, and that was the first time he saw me. And I'm like, "Wow." Like he was right. And I knew he was right.
Thom Singer
And because that's one guy in the class was like, "Oh, he was so good." And he was like, "No, he wasn't. He's hiding behind his personality." And so I see that. And so I want to, I want to peel back that onion and be able to do it. And I also think that what I'm trying to do working with this guy will make me a better speaker in a different way as well. Because if I can be more raw, if I can just let more of, you know, it's less performance and more me out.
Avish
Wow. Well, that is a, that's great. And you know, a few other things I could ask about, but I think that's kind of a really perfect statement to sort of move towards wrapping things up on.
Avish
I am going to finish up here in just a few minutes. But for people who want to learn more about you, whether it's your speaking work or the Austin Council or stand-up or whatever, what are the best ways they should connect with you, find out about you, learn more about you?
Thom Singer
So LinkedIn is probably the best tool out there for connecting with people in a business type setting. I have an Instagram that I play with, but it's nothing, no one's going to say like, "Wow, Tom's Instagram is really good."
Thom Singer
But then my website is just tomsinger.com. I spell Tom, T-H-O-M. So it's tomsinger.com. But a little secret, when the internet first came out, I bought tomsinger.com, T-O-M, S-I-N-G-E-R dot com. Because I figured someday someone's just going to spell it wrong. So I redirect.
Avish
Very smart.
Thom Singer
As long as you get Tom somewhat close to one or the other way, then you're going to find me.
Avish
All right. Fantastic. And we will put those links in the show notes as well. So, oh, and the one thing we didn't even mention, but I'll put in the show notes for people is you also have a podcast, which you've had for years and you sort of shifted the focus. But why don't you just do a quick plug for that? Just tell us about that.
Thom Singer
And you know, I do so many different things. I'm trying to relaunch it. It's been kind of dormant again for the last year or so because I've been sort of pulled in so many directions. But it originally was called Cool Things Entrepreneurs Do. And I interviewed all my friends who were entrepreneurs about cool things they were doing. It's now called Making Waves at the C Level. Like C is in the letter C Level. CEO, CFO. And I interview business leaders about how they shake things up in their company. Yeah. So it's, I've been doing it since 2014. So there's close to 800 episodes, but it's been a little quiet lately.
Avish
Oh, I didn't realize that. But I think that for me it was the Cool Things Entrepreneurs Do. I was like a very regular listener. The C Level, I understood why you made the shift. It became a little less relevant for me. So I didn't realize it had gone dormant. But you can go back and get all 800.
Thom Singer
Yeah, they're all there. And the Cool Things Entrepreneurs Do, you know, what was interesting about that show is I started it before all the celebrities had podcasts. So it was for the first two years, like 2014, '15, maybe even '16, it was like a top 50 business podcast on Apple Podcasts when the only way you got podcasts was Apple was like 90% of the business. So it was a wide, and it spun off a lot of speaking business. Even though I didn't speak on entrepreneurship, people who listened to it, I would mention being a speaker and they'd have an event and they'd look into me. I was picking up like five gigs a year from the podcast.
Avish
That's awesome.
Thom Singer
Until like 2016, '17, all the celebrities got in and I disappeared.
Avish
Got it. All right. Well, go check that out. We'll put the links and everything in there. So Tom, one final question. I like to end all my podcasts this way. I talk about the idea of saying yes and instead of yes, but because I honestly believe the world would be a better place if everyone just started with a default mindset of yes and instead of yes, but. So what is one small thing that you believe that if everyone did, it would make the world a better place?
Thom Singer
I think if everybody decided that they were going to go out and help somebody else, promote somebody else, it would make the world a better place.
Thom Singer
You know, social media has become look at me media. And it's very rare you see people, you know, say, "Hey, check out Avish. He's doing amazing things." And if more people at least took one day a week where they used all their social media to promote someone else, the world would be a better place.
Avish
Ooh, I love that answer. And I'm going to start doing that myself this week. So.
Thom Singer
I do a thing on Saturday called Cool Things My Friends Do, which is sort of the next version of Cool Things Entrepreneurs Do. And every Saturday on LinkedIn, I make a post. It's somebody who released a book. It's an entrepreneur in Austin who, you know, got funding. It's somebody wins, you know, gets put in the Hall of Fame in their industry, whatever it is.
Thom Singer
But the great part about it, it means all week I have to be paying attention to what people I know have done. And sometimes if I'm busy, I get to Saturday and I'm like, "Oh no." And I have to go back through everybody's social media and look for something that's cool enough to share. But it's a great exercise to make me pay attention to other people.
Avish
I love that. I think everyone should definitely do that. Tom, thank you very much. This was fantastic. Everyone be sure to check out all of Tom's links, check out his website, connect with him on LinkedIn. Tom, thank you very much. This was great. And hopefully we can do it again sometime.
Thom Singer
I look forward to it.