In this episode, I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with fellow improviser and change-maker Kathy Klotz-Guest. Kathy’s career path is anything but boring. She went from being a rare female leader in Silicon Valley tech to blending her love of improv and comedy into transformational work with corporate teams.
We talk about her journey, the power of “yes, and” in leading change, why vulnerability and honesty matter more than ever in the age of AI, and how embracing fun isn’t just good for morale - it’s good for business. If you're a leader navigating uncertainty, this conversation is a must-listen.
Key Takeaways:
- How Kathy’s improv and stand-up background made her a better tech leader
- What it was like being one of the few women in Silicon Valley, and how she navigated the challenges
- Why corporate advice like “don’t be funny” hurts more than helps
- How to bring humanity back into leadership, especially during times of change
- The disconnect between how leaders think their teams feel about change - and how they actually feel
- Why “talking to your team” is the most obvious yet underused leadership tool
- Kathy’s favorite improv game for building communication and adaptability in teams
Relevant Links:
- Kathy’s Website: KeepingItHuman.com
- Kathy on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kathyklotzguest
- Kathy’s book: Stop Boring Me!
Unedited Transcript
Avish Parashar
Hello, Kathy, and welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Kathy Klotz Guest
I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. I love talking to fellow improvisers, so I'm very excited.
Avish Parashar
Excellent. Well, I love talking to fellow improvisers too, for the most part. I don't know if you encounter this in your improv days, but sometimes even as an improviser, being around a whole group of improvisers all the time, sometimes got to be a little bit much.
Kathy Klotz Guest
It can be. It's like, where's the off switch? Is there a mute button for you guys?
You need to.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, exactly. Like.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Show after the performance. Awesome. But when you're like at a friend's wedding and you still the offer response. Let's just relax for a minute.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah. Just chill. It's okay.
Avish Parashar
But I'm looking forward to this delightfully, because we are fellow improvisers, but also we're in similar applied improv spaces. So, yeah, talk about some similar things, but I'm sure we do some different things and have some different points of view.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah, yeah.
Avish Parashar
So before we get into that, I just want to give you a chance to introduce yourself to people who are not familiar with you on my podcast. So could you just give us like the kind of one minute quick. I know it's tough, but the one minute quick overview of Kathy Klote's guest. Like, who you are and what you're up to.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah. So really it's, it's.
Imagine like a performer, an improviser and stand up comedian has a baby with somebody who spent two decades leading tech teams. And that's me. That's me. And so it's a combo package of taking all those lessons from both the business stage and the improv and comedy stages and really blending them to help teams unlock more of that good potential that you and I both know they have. But they get blocked here and there. And so how do we get them out of their own way? And how do we really neutralize, I think, some of the, the kind of fear and all the stuff that happens in these corporate spaces, you know, well.
Avish Parashar
That'S a great place to start. And I don't know if you're like me, but after I speak, one of people always wonder, well, how did you get started with this? So I want to turn that a bit to you, but first let's talk about the. You know, you worked as a leader in tech, as a, as a woman in Silicon Valley, where you were probably a very small minority. So how did that like, did you always have an interest in tech growing up, or do you just kind of stumble into, like, how did you become a leader in tech at that point in time?
Kathy Klotz Guest
Oh, it was completely by, by accident, really. I mean, it's such a great question because I really fell into it. I mean, I grew up here in the Bay Area, and so after college I was like, I don't know, I had a bunch of offers in tech and I went, okay, why not? So I went into tech and was unprepared for the reality of being sometime only woman in a room or one of two. And then you'd find each other. You know, sometimes I'm sure you've had that experience where you see somebody like you because there's not a lot of people that look like you in a room and then you lock eyes and you're like, let's talk. And then, and then I sort of stuck with it.
And then little by little, started, you know, kind of failing, not sure how to fit in, and just started saying yes and to opportunities that. That came my way. And little by little, sort of found myself in a space that I was like, I don't even know anything about leading team, but okay, okay, I'll give it a try.
Avish Parashar
So was that a case where like, supervisors saw like leadership potential in you before you did and they're like, oh, you should lead this team, or did you like, volunteer and be like, well, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to volunteer to do this?
Kathy Klotz Guest
I. It was a mix. It really honestly was a mix. I think there I had a boss that was like, you're so great. You're. You're like a diamond in the rough. And then I had, I had a guy come up to me, a coworker.
We were up for the same promotion. He's like, I hope you don't get it and I hope if you get it, you fail. And I was like, good to know. So really?
Avish Parashar
And yeah, really? Coworker?
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Avish Parashar
It's just like a co worker within your team that you had to work with.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah, co working in my team. And then I got the promotion because people skills.
Avish Parashar
Wait, wait, you're saying the person who said that to you didn't have good people skills?
Kathy Klotz Guest
I know, shocking, right? Like you like. But he didn't get it. And then, so I kind of, I had a feel. And then I never got any formal leadership training at all.
Like, at all. The only training I ever had formally was like, they, they sent me to, like, Decker School, which was like, you learn how to do presentations. And I was like, am I going to present my way through leadership? Like, how is this going to work? I am. I don't know how to do this. But I think, like everything else, I just felt like, okay, I've, yes, handed hard things before, and I'm just going to, you know, figure it out.
And I'm going to have to learn to swim in the. In the deep end of the pool. And that's kind of what I did little by little, because I really didn't have any formal. I think, honestly, comedy was the best training that I had.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, I want to get into that in a moment, but I want to kind of. This story is so interesting to me for a couple. First, I just got to know, did this person stay on the team after you got the promotion?
Kathy Klotz Guest
You want to know? Yeah, he did. And here's. Here's the MO that happened, which a lot of people might recognize is that. So he stayed on the team. And then he would just do it and run around me. I'd say, okay, well, I need this whatever proposal by the end of the day or tomorrow.
And he'd like, he'd be like, we'll see. And then he'd go around, do an end run to.
To my bigger boss around me. And one of the joys of being a woman in tech is that did any of the higher bosses, like, have your back and go, no, no, you should go to Kathy? No, no. But eventually, as these things do, I got a job in another division, and it. I. I think sort of got out of that. But honestly, it was like.
It was like the ultimate original survivor. You're like, I will outlast. I will outwill. I grew up in a family, a big, big family. Like, I think I sort of feel like I've done the. The reps here for dealing with this kind of stuff. Wasn't easy.
But, you know, I know I'm not alone. I'm sure, like, you have stories and, you know, it's. It just, it's how much you just go, I think I can do this. I'm. I'm gonna prove them wrong because I.
What choice do I have? I'm just gonna keep doing it.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, that's. That's. It's. It's. It's wild.
It's so funny, right? I. So I started out in. In tech as well, in the East Coast. I was a programmer, had an engineering degree, and worked while doing the improv. But I guess I Was very fortunate. Like, I had a good boss and my kind of.
My main job was at Chase before it became JP Morgan Chase. And just I happen to have, like three or four women already on the team. It was very rare, I guess, very different.
So I was. And the person I work closest, most closely with was a woman. So it's just wild how that sort of. But I guess Silicon Valley is a whole different. Different world at that time.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yes, Very different.
Avish Parashar
So you mentioned. Yes, and a couple times. And comedy was the best training. So. Yeah. When did you start doing improv? When do you start doing standup?
Was it before you worked in tech dirt? Like, you start doing it in the middle? When did that evolve?
Kathy Klotz Guest
So I was living parallel lives. It was really fragmented. I. So I.
Part of being. The joys of being a woman in Silicon Valley in those days was I was told, don't be funny. Don't laugh so much. You laugh too much, nobody will take you seriously. So I was like, okay. So I. Right after.
Avish Parashar
Sorry, let me interject for one second. Was that advice given to you in general, or was that advice given to you because you were a woman?
Kathy Klotz Guest
I think it was both. I. I think just generally speaking, tech was like. Like uber serious. I think. I think everybody got that. I think you're right. I think the extra.
The extra cherry on the IC as a woman, you're already fighting a battle to be taken seriously. And so other women thought they were helping me, and they were like, don't. Don't laugh so much. You won't be taken seriously. Put your hands.
Avish Parashar
Advice from other women coming to you.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Women and men and. But mostly women. Mostly women who thought they were helping me, but they weren't.
But so I. I got that advice, which was very bad advice, by the way.
Never, never listen. And at the same time, right after college, I actually started in stand up. I started in stand up after college and then about a couple years, three. Three years or so into standup, somebody said, you know, you're like a people person. Like, and not all standups are, like, you should do improv. And I was like, I always wanted to. So about three years after doing standup, I.
I jumped into improv and sketch. And I. And I loved improv.
And I felt like, wow. This whole yes and have your back kind of thing, I like that because I don't have that in my day job. Like, I was like, I like this. This feels human to me. And that's kind of how it happened.
So I was. L like, parallel past. Like, you Know, robotic Kathy, trying, trying to get along, survived. And then, you know, on the stage I was like, oh my God, this is so great. I can sort of have fun and people show for each other. For the most part, you know, improvisers, we're not perfect, but generally speaking, we try.
Avish Parashar
Yes.
Kathy Klotz Guest
So. Right, yeah.
Avish Parashar
Come from the right motivation. So I'm curious, did you if you had the experience? I did because like in my non stage life, I'm a little more introverted and quiet. So when people at work found out, like at my I T job found out that I did this stuff, they were like, what you. So I don't know. Or were you more like people kind of. Oh, of course Kathy does. Does improv.
Or were you kind of almost like two Personas for a while?
Kathy Klotz Guest
You know what? I think people weren't shocked because before I took the bad advice of like cleaving myself, I was always like, you know, I was like doing jokes and meetings and stuff and. And then it was like, tone it down, tone it down. So people were like, that tracks. I think a lot of people were like, yeah, that. And then some people were really blown away. And I think it was just a mix.
But the people who really knew me were like, yeah, I get it. You're. You're being kind of put in a box here. So you have to have some place where you can be yourself and not be like, put in that box.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, and I think that's such a. I think especially with improv, I mean, I think people can find this in a lot of areas. But yeah, what I love about improv is because it's on the spot. There's no, no writing, no editing. Like, it is you just being yourself, really. It's the best creative expression form I found.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Oh my gosh, I so agree with you. It's. It is the best. And that's the beauty is that I think generally speaking, you know, there really is no, no right or wrong. Sometimes you, you know, you beat yourself up later. You're like, I should have said this other thing. But, but you know, because we're comedians folks and that's what we do, we rewrite.
But, but generally speaking, I. It was so great to have a break from the day job of like, oh my God, this is suffocating to be in a creative space. To your point of just being able to like have that freedom of expression. I was like, this is amazing. Why can't every day be like this?
Avish Parashar
Well, I think that question then sort of leads to what you're doing now. So how did that transition happen? You worked for a while with, in the tech job and you're doing improv standup. So when did you decide that? All right, I'm going to kind of blend these and leave this job behind and start my own business.
Kathy Klotz Guest
You know, I knew I wanted to start my own business after my first was born, you know, because I remember I gave. I had my son, he came. My first son came early, like two and a half weeks early. I get a call literally three days after my son was born. And I, I had an episiotomy. So every woman knows, like, this is like serious. Like you, you need healing time.
So I have this baby ambition and I get a call from my boss. He's a. Congratulations, I need you in Japan next week.
Avish Parashar
Are you kidding?
Kathy Klotz Guest
Not kidding. And I was, I was like, no can do. I. I had a baby, not a football. So no, I can't, I can't do that.
Yeah, you'll be fine. You know, it's okay. I know you're stitched up and you can't walk right, but you know what? Come on, get on a plane. And he was like, but I need you. And I realized that it wasn't need, it was dependence. And it was like, was not healthy.
And so I remember saying, at some point, I really need to do this thing. So while I was still in tech, I started the side thing and little by little, you know, started to grow it, started to grow it and. But I, I think after my first son was born, I realized this is not. I can't do this long term. I was working too many hours. How was I going to have a family, do comedy, be, you know, a business leader? And like, it just was too much.
And it just wasn't. It also wasn't making me happy. I was not happy. And of course you, you can. Anybody who's ever felt othered in a room or felt like you didn't fit in, you'll relate to this. And that's a human thing. I just felt like I was tired of, like, being a woman in the room and being talked over and having to work so hard.
And I just thought, why? And I. It just wasn't giving me joy. Yeah, it's.
Avish Parashar
It's so interesting. And you know, I've been doing this for. I've been doing the speaking thing for like 20 years and I'm still, I still feel like I'm figuring it out. I'm working on new material and I'm working on stories and I'm like going through my life and using. I'm actually using some AI to help prompt me like to come up with stories.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And the common thread, which I've. I've talked about tangentially, but is that literally like every story that turned into a success in my life, I'm like, well, that looked fun. So I did that.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yes.
Avish Parashar
And then, oh, that looked fun. So I tried that. That's why I started doing improv. It's why I started doing stand up. It's why I like started doing martial arts.
Like, it just, it looks fun. Oh, hey, look, this is his life transformative thing. And yet.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Probably experience this as well. Especially in, in corporate, in the work world is.
It's almost discounted. It's almost like not only are we not caring about the fun, but if it's fun, we feel guilty about doing it, which is like the opposite.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yes. So true.
Oh my God, you hit it on the head. It's like, it's like we don't do fun here. And I was like, how can you not do fun? We're human, we still have to breathe. Like, it's like I never understood that. It just made no sense to me. And you know, you and I both know from the stage the difference it can make when we take this attitud of like, let's make mistakes, let's figure it out.
It's not the end of the world. Quite the opposite is then we don't fear failure so much. And like, it's so transformational.
Why do we fear fun? Because it's not serious. And then I think about what was said to me when I was a young woman and all the times that that embodies it right there. We, we're suspicious of it. And it's such a shame because the very thing that can transform us, as you well know from your improv background, it's like, like it's fun. It's like, this is not a dirty thing, people. This is healthy.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. I think, I think there's so much programming, I think from you know, the kind of the puritan work ethic.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
You know, the depression era, like, hey, we just gotta. But that's message been passed down. It's such a different world now. But. And like I think about the movies and things that I valued growing up, it was like the sports or the martial arts, but it was always that scene where like they would just have to sacrifice so much and be miserable and go through the muck. And to me, in my mind that became like if you enjoy it. No, no, you gotta like suck and suffer.
And that's, it's like, oh. But if I look at reality, like, oh, the people who are really being innovative and creative, like, they're not beating themselves up, they're just playing and experimenting and, and suffering less even.
Kathy Klotz Guest
And it's, it's so funny too. You'll appreciate this because, because you do stand up as well. I remember, like I, I, I, I did, I did this performance at a club and this guy came up to me afterwards and he was a fellow comedian that I sort of knew and he said, yeah, yeah, great set. He said, but you seem way too put together and healthy to be a stand up comedian. He's like, he goes, you don't seem trauma, you know, sort of written. And I was like, everybody has their trauma. But he was just like, I don't know, you definitely seem like an improviser because you just seem way too healthy to be on that, to be stand up. And I thought, isn't that funny that we, there is that thing where like, as an artist, like, you're supposed to like, suffer and you're supposed to like. And there.
That is true because comedy is therapy, as we both know. But it's, it doesn't always have to be that, nor does it have to be that way in companies. It's like, you know, fun can be the reprieve, but it also can be the very transformational method you just said, which is to play and experiment and try stuff and it doesn't have to hurt. Like, why do we, we associate with like the bad stuff?
Avish Parashar
It's so ironic too because, you know, you work with a lot of leaders and I'm sure that if you talk to any of them, and if I talk any leaders I work with, what do you want your culture to look like? They'll say, want to be positive, supportive, collaborative, creative, and like, those are all like fun things. Yeah, look, what are you doing to implement that day to day? It's like, well, I'm demanding they do it.
Really how it works.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah, exactly. We will all have fun. We will have fun by management objective and nbos. And here's the, here's the bar chart on fun and you will have fun. You know, it's like, no, stop.
Avish Parashar
It's one of my favorite little, like, cartoons. I don't know if it was the far side or whatnot, just a random one that some business person made, but it was like, you know, it was like a, like a galley type ship with a driver being like the beatings will continue until morale improves. Like, that sums up so much, I think.
Kathy Klotz Guest
So true. It's so true. It's so funny. And isn't it ironic that, like, everything this leader was describing to you, we, well, we want to have fun. We want to. And you're like, yeah, you just described improv. You just described fun.
You hear yourself? And it's, it's interesting that the very thing they know they need that, that is fun. But it's like, if you don't give it a fancy, like, suffering name, they don't see it as like, you know, something they have to do. You. You got to put fun by objective or fun.
Avish Parashar
How do you justify us having fun?
Kathy Klotz Guest
Like, I want a business case analysis. Obvious. Give me, give me the business case analysis for fun.
And I need it. I need bar charts and I need it and.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So let's talk about your approach then. Now. So this kind of was your, your journey. And I know you have, you have a book. If you're watching this on video, you can see Stop Boring Me. And your website and your company is called Keeping It Human.
So kind of, what is your approach now if you're going to work with a client and kind of helping them?
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah, so it really is. The approach is probably very similar.
It's like, you know, where. Where are you stuck? What's missing?
And it's all. It's very much the same thing. I know every leader and I say this with love, dear leader, you think you're special.
You are special. And yet the needs are different. They may be slightly different, but I think they're universal everywhere. All teams struggle with really similar things, as we know. So it really is about, you know, do you. What's. What's the biggest problem?
And I think the biggest problem I see over and over again is like, you know, teams are stuck, teams are, are doing more with less. We're expecting so much. And you and I both know from tech that the product life cycles are shorter. There's so much like unknown and uncertainty, especially with AI, people are scared. And I don't think that we do enough as leaders to really talk about it. So my approach is like, like, okay, where does it hurt? What do we need to do? And like, nine and a half times out of ten, everything you and I do can be the antidote to making it better for them.
But, you know, and it may even mean that we, you know, improv is the how. It's the how, it's not the what. So what we Sell is a way to, to rethink these challenges and to make them easier. Yeah. So a lot of my clients are tech. Not exclusively, but, you know, a lot of them struggle, you know, pretty much with the same. The same things.
Avish Parashar
So are you running them through improv games? You play improv games and stuff with them?
Kathy Klotz Guest
Oh, we do, but like, you probably appreciate it's pretty much applied. It's very much applied. So, you know, when we say applied, it's like, I'm not having them get up there and do like a pure stage game in its purest form. It's really like, all right, if you're struggling with better with communication in your team, let's. Let's apply, you know, some of the games you and I both know to, you know, make it easier for you guys to say the truth, to be grounded, to listen to each other. And I know, yes, and it gets overplayed, but you and I both know how important it is and how overlooked it is. And just, even just some of the, you know, basic applied things of offers and listening that you and I take for granted now, it's new to them and their team just doesn't hear each other.
They don't know how to disagree without blame and shame and they just. Basic communication and things like that. So we're applying that to solve those challenges. And it takes a little bit, but I've never seen a team not make progress if they were committed. Like, if you're really committed to this and do it consistently for a week, track the progress, then do it for two weeks, then do it for a month. And once they sort of get in that habit, they see the before and after.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, I think that's such an important lesson that I know I talk a lot about with improv. Is that like that step by step approach, it's not, you know, the, the tech life cycle of like, oh, here's the two year plan. It's like take a step, try it for exactly a week, and then see what happens. I think the same thing in improv, right. It's like the people who have an idea where the scene's gonna end up always flame out because they're cutting their creativity off. It's being that adaptable. And people, so many people hate that.
Like, they want the plan laid out. Here's what I'm gonna do, and here's exactly what's gonna happen, happen.
Kathy Klotz Guest
And you can give them a little bit of that. You and I both know, yeah, from, from corporate, they. It is okay to lay out here's the plan. And also if you don't do the plan, and that is your choice, if you choose to deny or block the offer, what we call blocking the offer in improv, then the progress doesn't happen so little. It's really about baby steps. Because I find that with this kind of stuff, it's. It can be overwhelming when it's new. Right? It can be overwhelming, like, because a lot of people's brains, especially in the tech space, in the corporate space, and they're not wired to think that way.
So when it's new, it's like, look, just take one or two things at a time, Start working on that. Track your progress. And more. Way more often than not, people are like, oh, my God, it made a difference. And then, oh, wow. Wow. It's sort of like losing weight.
Once you lose those first couple pounds, you feel incentivized to keep going, but you need to see the progress, and you need to do it to see the progress.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And I find applying that to myself as a performer who craves, gives feedback.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
If I try to go too long without any results, I eventually just give up.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah, of course. Who wouldn't? You need.
And I get that. And I think that's where I just think people are today. There's just a lot of unknowns. It's the. You know this as well from your business. It's like. And from speaking.
It's the uncertainty. There's so much uncertainty that I think people feel like they don't control anything in their lives. And so this is one area where, like, look, if you do this, you will get better results, but you have to commit. So even little things they can do that they can see the progress on. It matters because they don't feel they have control at work. They don't feel they have control over AI Some people are being asked to train their replacement. They feel it's training their replacement because the company hasn't done a good job of saying, no, no, no, you're partnering with AI So there's so much.
I think there's just so much unknowns for so many teams that they're feeling like they're being asked to do everything with nothing, and it's the impossible. And I think we need to really look at the way that we're asking teams to do things, and it's gotten so unfun and unhuman.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, I think that's a great point. So is that the. When you're kind of hired by a company, is there, like, are you Noticing a specific sort of challenge. Is it just overwhelm of burnout, or is it now tech and AI or is there.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Are you seeing kind of a. Yeah. A grouping of the problems you're dealing with?
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah, the problems are pretty consistent. I think it's dealing with uncertainty. It's dealing with change. And, you know, because I know you speak. You speak on this. It's. I think it's really change, and it's.
I'd say the biggest problem is change, and they don't know how to lean into it. They don't know how to. They haven't been trained for it. So, you know, leaders are. And here's the thing that shows up all the time, and it cracks me up is leaders are like, oh, no, my people are ready for change. And you talk to the team, and the team's like, we are not. We do not know.
We do not have support. And there's always, like. And so the leaders are shocked. I tell you. They're shocked that the employees feel this way. And so it cracks me up. I see this, like, eight times out of ten, I'll see that. That disconnect.
And I think change is. The big common theme is teams don't feel prepared for it because they don't feel supported. And so it's the. That is probably the single biggest. And you can apply it to different things like communication or product or what, discipline.
But overall, that. That is the big theme. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
So let's say we've got a leader listening here, and they're like, all right, we're rolling out this big change. It could be we want people to use AI or, you know, I. I do a lot of, like, we're rolling out new corporate values and want people to embrace, like, whatever the changes or, you know, reorg.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yep.
Avish Parashar
Now, obviously, this is overly simplifying, but, like, what would you. Would you give them, like, a tip or two? Like, how do they get started on this process? Like, right beyond saying, all right, we got to hire Kathy to come in and work with our people, which, of course. But in the meantime, while they're getting ready to do that, like, how. How can they immediately start sort of smoothing that road to change?
Kathy Klotz Guest
You know, in my experience, it may seem just, like, obvious, but companies don't do it. Leaders, sit down with your teams, tell them what you know, be honest about the things you don't know, and let them know that it's. If things aren't working, you're there to smooth it out. You will take feedback, you'll Course. Correct. So I think you can have a goal of rolling out AI, but be flexible in how you get there. Like, don't just roll over people so your goal won't change.
But the plan of how you get there. Be flexible about that plan. You and I both know that if you're. And I think that's the biggest thing I see is they have a plan. They don't talk to their people. They didn't factor in the human fear. They didn't factor in the human stuff, and now they're shocked.
I tell you that adoption is. And the teams are like. But they never talk to us. So, you know, be willing to adapt the plan. Don't have to drop the goal, but be willing to change up how you get there. And if you're not talking to your teams about, like, what you know and what you don't know and being honest about it, that is the single biggest thing. And I know a lot of.
A lot of leaders feel like I can't get vulnerable. Well, you should start getting vulnerable because your team thinks that you don't care. And it's probably not that, but you're not willing to get vulnerable with your team, and you're going to need to start telling them. And I think that's really. Just having the conversation of ish is really, I think, the biggest thing.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, it's. It's funny. I think it's. So you talk about how it's simple or it sounds obvious, and I agree. And there are times where I'm wondering why I even have a job.
Kathy Klotz Guest
I know. It's just so obvious. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
So I'm working on a new book, and, you know, I'm using. Yes. And deal with change. And so I've been interviewing leaders like. Like, share with me instances of when you've led change successfully or how you've struggled.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And it's almost universal. The ones that work, they're like, I got the people involved. I sat them down. We did, like, exercises. I talk with them. I let them have input. And we communicated clearly.
And the ones that didn't was like, yeah, we pushed too fast. We just kind of told people, here's what you have to do. And it's like, it's so obvious, and yet it's still, like, ubiquitous that this is the problem. And I'm like, really do. Am I gonna have a job just to come in and tell people. Oh, yeah. Just, like, sit down and talk to your people and listen to what they say.
Like, thousands of dollars now. Thank you.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Now give me, $50,000 for that?
Avish Parashar
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Kathy Klotz Guest
No, it is funny because when I say that, you're so right, like talking to a fellow improviser. It's just one of those. Chalk it up to like in the obvious column check. But if it was obvious, people should be doing it and they're not doing it. And from the work I see, they're not doing it. So that's, you know, sometimes the obvious thing isn't the thing that's obvious to everybody. And I, I've had to learn to appreciate that.
And it's exactly right. I mean, you can plan all you want to, but if your people aren't involved, you're just gonna have a really hard time with it.
Avish Parashar
And so let's talk about why they don't. And I know you have a whole thing around fear as a four letter word.
Kathy Klotz Guest
It is a four letter. Not my favorite. I have some favorite ones.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, yeah. Some stage appropriate ones. Versus. Well, yes, there's, there's like stand up comedy appropriate, improv comedy appropriate, and then like corporate presentation appropriate.
Kathy Klotz Guest
It's three different stages.
Avish Parashar
So, you know, and I would assume when we say it's so obvious, why don't people do it? I think sometimes they forget, but I would assume a lot of it is, is, is just fear, like you said, of being vulnerable. So can you talk a little about kind of your thoughts around that?
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah, I think it's exactly what you said. It's, it's, it's the fear of being vulnerable and looking every.
Looking like, oh my God. That's like me. I'm supposed to know everything. I'm supposed to know everything. Somebody said to me, a leader said to me, kathy, I'm supposed to know everything.
That's my job. And I was like, well, who said it's your job? Well, I'm, I feel like I'm supposed to know everything. And I'm like, you're not supposed to know everything. And I said. And I was like, well, what would happen if you told your team? We don't know because AI is so new, for example.
We can't possibly know how it will work in the future. We can't. We think it's this, but we don't know. And I was like, what's the, what's the worst that could happen if you just told your people that? And I was like, I have news for you. They already know you're not perfect. I know this is hard to hear, but get this.
They know, but they don't know that you know, that that because you have never admitted sort of we're not sure. And what would happen if you just took one little leap of like trusting your team enough to handle it and trusting them and what that could do for the trust. And you know, I've seen, I've seen success where people are willing to do it. You don't have to roll over. But I, I think it really is about being willing to just say we don't know everything. We don't know all the unknowns. There's unknowns here.
And we're willing to course correct. And we're learning. And if your team knows that you're in it with them, that's a whole different ball of wax. Right. So that's usually where I start. And are there, are there people who say, well, I can't do that. Sure. And then I say, good luck.
But the ones who are willing to do that find shock of shocks. Right. Obviously the, the resistance comes down. The resistance of their people comes down shock. So it's really interesting to me and I laugh. And you'll appreciate this from your background too. It's like we throw technology, and I know this from Silicon Valley, we throw technology at the issue.
Like, tech is going to solve every problem. It's not going to solve every problem. This is a human problem. Throw technology at a human problem and stop trying.
It just doesn't. That's not the answer.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, I think it's. The vulnerability is so, it's just so weirdly ironic. Like you said, like, like people don't want to say I don't know, because they feel it will make them lose credibility. And yet it's like one of the fastest ways to gain credibility is just admit the things you don't know. So that. Yeah, because, you know, people can smell when someone's BSing you. It's like, no, you're reducing your credibility by not saying I don't know, but you're doing it to try to increase your credibility.
Kathy Klotz Guest
I know, it is crazy. It's the, it's the end run. We try to do an end run around being relatable and, and vulnerability is part of that. But the team already knows that. And if it makes it feel better, future leader or current leader or aspiring leader, if you hear this message, they already know you're not perfect. But just admitting that you don't know things really bonds you to your team because they realize, okay, y' all admit you don't know.
They trust you more. But you'll figure it out. You'll figure it out together. I think that message of being in the trenches with your people is really what they need to hear. It's not what they don't need to hear, it's what they need to hear that.
Here's the plan. But remember, nobody really knows how this AI thing, for, in the case of AI, how this is going to go. Nobody knows. We're all guessing. And even the people who developed AI don't know.
Avish Parashar
No, they don't.
Kathy Klotz Guest
This is a Pandora's box to some degree. And we have to admit that there are variables. We don't know. But we cannot throw tech at every problem. It will not, and it will make it worse. So when your team expresses concern and you don't address it, you are ignoring the problem. And so communication is really important to take down that resistance.
Avish Parashar
Well, it's wild because as you're saying, I realize it's more important now than it used to be because AI and tech is replacing so much that, you know, in the past. All right, you got this new tech tool. Well, you still have to get together with people and talk. Now it's like AI is replacing that. So if we don't proactively connect and be vulnerable and get that human connection, like, you're gonna really fall behind and get completely obsolete.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Absolutely, absolutely. And ignoring the problem just makes it worse. I think your people are like, why are you. They feel like they're ignoring the problem, and then that actually looks worse. That goes worse for you because then it looks like you don't care. Which probably in most cases is not the case. It's just that people are.
Are really afraid to have that vulnerable conversation. So, you know, it's so much worse to just. To your people thinking that you don't care. So I think it's much better to swallow that pill and just say, look, we don't know. Either way is going to be maybe a challenge. But I promise you, just by being open with your team, they at least feel like the door is open to that conversation. They can have it with you because not addressing it, man.
You and I both know that ignoring the elephant in the room is just not the answer. It's not going to get you anywhere.
Avish Parashar
No, it is definitely not. All right, well. Well, this has been great. I'm going to finish up in, in, in a couple minutes here. I'm going to ask you some quick questions to finish, but first, let's find out if people want to learn more about you, connect with you, you know, potentially talk to you about bringing you in to work with their teams or organization or have you as a speaker. What is, what are the best ways to find and connect you? Connect with you.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah, sure. Thank you. The best ways are still atkeeping it human dot com. You can follow me on LinkedIn. I, I am trying to be good about checking my spam box, but like checking like my DMs on LinkedIn is, is like opening the door to a closet. You shove stuff in and you know, it's, you're like, it's going to fall on me. I don't want to open it.
Avish Parashar
Are you getting a lot of dating requests?
Kathy Klotz Guest
This, I'm getting all the stuff that you wish you didn't. Yeah, I, I get, I get the stuff that I'm like, there's no way this should be on LinkedIn, but I get it. And it's getting out of control. But you can, you can link in with me there and you know, you can also, like I say, keeping it human is probably, probably the easiest. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Okay. And we'll link to the website and LinkedIn. We'll put a link to your, your. Well, so a couple short kind of quick fire questions here. Here.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
One in two parts. Do you have a favorite improv game to play? And you have a favorite improv game to use as an applied improvisation tool with groups.
Kathy Klotz Guest
I love. Okay. There's two games I really love equally. Yes. One of them there. I love the story spine. But more than the story spine, I like.
I call it monkey wrench. You can call it pattern interrupt, story interrupt. And that's getting people where somebody's telling the story avish. And then somebody else will interrupt them and they have to integrate that suggestion and keep the story going. And I think that's really good practice because today we're disrupted and interrupted all the time, but we still have to keep going. And so how do we integrate all these different suggestions? And then sometimes the opposite is true.
Sometimes I have to teach people not to say yes to everything and to learn how to say, say I hear you. Yes. And we'll deal with that next week. And so depending on the muscles that need to be worked. I love that game. I love it so much.
Avish Parashar
And you love. That's when you love both playing and using for the.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yes, I love it. I think it's just a multipurpose in the words of, you know, of AI, the world of AI. I think it's just sort of the, the Swiss army knife. It works on uncertainty communications, on saying yes and on listening because you have to work and hear the suggestions, and you have to learn how to do both. And it's chaos.
Avish Parashar
You're just telling a story, and then someone. A fellow cast member or someone in the audience will just yell a suggestion like, oh, a bear walks in. Now you gotta.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yeah. And then you're like. And then that bear came to the lemonade stand. And, you know, that bear was really tech savvy. We set up a WI fi thing, added stripe.
Avish Parashar
I like that.
Kathy Klotz Guest
You know, and you have to integrate. And it's such. I think it is such a. Listen, you're gonna get disrupted at work all the time. You're gonna have multiple priorities. How do you integrate these things and keep going? How do you listen?
How do you. How do you do that?
And I think it's such a great skill to not be thrown off every time that happens. So I call it Monkey Wrench. But, you know, it's known by many names in the improv world. But I love that. I love that game. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Fun. Very fun.
All right, last question. I asked this at the end of all of my podcast interviews, and we may have similar answers here, but, you know, I. I do what I do. I talk about yes and instead of yes, but. Because I think the world would be a better place if everyone just had a default mindset of yes and instead of yes, but. So what is one small thing that you believe if everyone did, it would make the world a better place?
Kathy Klotz Guest
Oh, my gosh. So many things. I think if people embrace their imperfection, not only would you go easier on yourself, but I promise you this. When you're easier on yourself, you are more accepting and easier on everybody around you.
Avish Parashar
I love that. That is a great answer.
So embrace your imperfections. Keep it human. Kathy, thank you so much for being here. It's a great conversation.
Kathy Klotz Guest
Yes, thank you. It's so lovely to see you in the chat.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, Great. Awesome. Well, everyone go to links. They'll be in the show Notes. And Kathy will have to do this again sometime.
Kathy Klotz Guest
You so much, please. I would love it. Yes. And.