In this episode, I connect with my old friend Nye Warburton, someone I’ve known since our college improv comedy days. Nye’s journey has taken him from animating features like Monster House and Battleship to chairing the Interactive Design & Game Development department of a college and writing provocative essays about AI, blockchain, and creative technology. We talk about the pressures of entertainment, how to treat uncertainty as play, the importance of iteration over perfection, and why every creator should ship something - even if it’s rough. If you’re navigating creativity in a fast‑changing world, this conversation is for you.
Key Takeaways:
Creative careers benefit from saying “Yes, and”: start small, iterate, ship fast
Real‑world experience building and animating on major films gives unique lessons on unpredictability and resilience
AI may seem threatening, but controlling your data and tools can make it empowering
Play, experimentation, and curiosity keep creativity alive, even under pressure
Learning tools = valuable; but learning to ship and iterate is more important
Relevant Links:
Nye’s homepage/CV: nyewarburton.com
Nye’s “Digital Lab” blog with essays on AI, distributed tech, and creativity Paragraph
Nye’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nyewarburton/
Unedited Transcript
Nye Warburton Transcript
Avish Parashar
Foreign. Welcome to the podcast. How are you, my friend?
Nye Warburton
I'm good, man. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
Avish Parashar
Absolutely. I. I'm looking forward to this for a couple reasons. One is people may not know you and I have known each other for a very long time.
Over 30 years now.
Nye Warburton
Wow. I hadn't put a number next to it, but yes, the college days, we were. We were children together.
Avish Parashar
I. Yeah, I graduated 30 years ago, which is crazy. So obviously we met a little before I graduated. So it's always nice when I can reconnect with an old friend for the podcast. But also you, not just a random person. Are you from college? You and I did improv together in college.
We did improv when I did my first improv group after college, Pollywampus. You were one of my favorite founding members in that group.
Nye Warburton
Founding members of that. Exactly. I mean, improv is really big in my formative years. Really important to me.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And since then you have. Well, your whole background was in design and arts and drawing. You do your drawings.
Nye Warburton
And drawings. That's right.
Avish Parashar
I forgot about that. It popped in my head. But you had a really interesting path in terms of you worked in entertainment for a while and you've been working on game development, design, and now you're like teaching and stuff. So. Yeah, just for the unfortunate souls listening who don't have the joy that I do of knowing you as well. Okay, could you give us like the one minute anirin story? Sure.
Nye Warburton
Yeah. I started off cartooning and building Lego and just pursuing creativity and that includes improv and art and all kinds of stuff. But I was very much a traditional artist and I would use computers for like Photoshop or. But then I got really into them and I kind of went the whole other spectrum. And I was an animator for a while where I was doing 3D animation and went to California for that. And I did some movies and then I started doing pre visualization in movies, working with game engines, always playing with stuff.
So I was primarily. Cut. Yeah, I was primarily a contractor in entertainment. And then animation was kind of like, I think the staple. Like even when I was a creative, I was always making characters or telling stories. And then even with tech, I'm always pursuing characters or animation or something along those lines or AI, how it can be integrated. But I went through like motion capture pipelines and animation data and then that led me into AI and then I started like playing with that.
So, yeah, I was. I was. I was in LA for about 20 years. And then after the pandemic the project that I was on just like crashed and I went into teaching. And so I've now been really focused on how do you teach game development and think about creative technology, but also, you know, AI and what's coming.
Avish Parashar
So I want to, I want to get into a lot of that or all of that. But first just to brag on you a little bit and by extension make my podcast sound a little more impressive.
Nye Warburton
Okay, correct.
Avish Parashar
When. When we talk about, you know, like, I worked on some movies and this and that. Like, you know, a lot of people can say that and you know, these little like indie. Like you literally were. Your work, you contributed to like real major. Like, is it true, if I recall correctly, did you animate the opening feather or leaf falling at the beginning of the movie Monster House?
Nye Warburton
My first job in entertainment. Entertainment. When I went to la, I was on a movie called Monster House. And as a rookie animator, they gave me the longest shot in the movie where I had to animate a leaf. So if you look at Monster House, which is like a two, two minute sequence, it's old movie now, which is crazy.
Avish Parashar
But it's on my queue of movies to show my kids I haven't gotten because, you know, they, they're not great, but like things are a little scary. So.
Nye Warburton
Yeah. And that was the first time I, I did motion capture. That whole movie was kind of a motion capture blend. So in a way that like that was a pivotal point in my. Yes, I animated the leaf on that.
Avish Parashar
So everyone go watch Monster House at least the first two minutes. That leaf, that was nice animation. So.
Nye Warburton
That's right. And I am in the credits there at the very like if it.
Let's go by. And after everyone's left and all the popcorn guys are being cleaned up, then you'll see my. My credit go by in the Monster House.
Avish Parashar
Excellent. Well, I'll make my kids.
My kids want to watch all credits now anyways, because they every. No matter what movie, they could be a movie that was made like 40 years ago. They'd be like, is there like a bonus at the end? You know, the mid credits or the post credits?
Nye Warburton
Oh, right, yeah. Marvel Reveal or something. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And I'm always like, no. They're like, are you sure? I'm like, well, we can watch. But now when it's one of your movies, I'll make sure we watch a credit. I'll be the way I can trick them into watching the.
Nye Warburton
My favorite movie that I ever worked on was the worst movie ever. But it's called Battleship.
Avish Parashar
I remember, I think I saw that.
Nye Warburton
Yeah, it was absolutely terrible. But it is one of the most fun movies ever done because I was with like these really awesome people and we had aliens and explosions and it was just complete chaos and fun. And so not every project is like just because it's like, you know, Avengers or something is great to work on but sometimes you get these real terrible movies that you get on. But the people and the opportunity to do creative stuff is super fun.
Avish Parashar
And sometimes it's the worst. Right. Sometimes the opposite. Like the like terrible working experiences might result in a. Yeah, not necessarily even because like so you know, talk about gaming. One of my favorite games of all time is the Witcher 3.
Nye Warburton
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
But then when I learned more about it I was like podcast about it. Like evidently there were like horrible people to work for and they really just like were almost abusive to their employees. They worked them to the bow and I'm like, oh that's, that's sad. It's like you want everything, you want everything around the thing you'd like to be good. So it's. So I guess it's like working conditions doesn't necessarily relate directly.
Nye Warburton
Look at the reality of working in entertainment. It's lots of late nights, it's unrealistic deadlines. All. I mean this is. There's also just Hollywood tropes. The, the sunglasses and the deal making out per, you know, is more important than the day to day production. So what's amazing to me is that I was surrounded by some of the most talented people from around the world working on these crazy things.
But we were all shoved in rooms working with round the clock to hit our deadlines and then once it was done we had to move on to the next one. So you're kind of just like moving from project to project when you work in la and it's, it's a, it's a hustle.
Avish Parashar
Well, it's interesting. I could talk about, I mean I just am very curious. Interested in the entertainment industry. I could talk to you about this but for the sake of the podcast, you know, it's more about say non entertainment, you know, listeners like people working kind of corporate environment stuff. But there's an interesting sort of leadership thing there in that that's kind of the model right now. Would you say you've been in there? So would you agree that that model exists, is allowed to exist because there are so many people who want to work there that they're willing to put up with that?
Nye Warburton
Potentially? Yeah. Yeah. I mean also Artists just suck at business. Right. They come in and so they are willing. They're there not because of the money.
They're there because they're interested in doing something interesting like creative and. Right. Animators get into it not because they want to like, you know, you can go to Wall street or something. You get into animation because you want to tell stories. You want to like play with these things or do something really technical or problem solving wise. And so it attracts a certain kind of personality. I feel like that certain personality is not very good at negotiating or understanding things like intellectual property or all the things that are important for you to engage as a contractor.
So it's skewed really badly against creatives and artists, which is not great. Part of the reason why I like teaching is because I like teaching about what does it take to be, you know, know your worth and, you know, this is my work and this is how, you know, hey, what, what's crunch like here today? You know, I think it's possible to build production that is sustainable, that doesn't grind your workers, that everyone feels very, very engaged with. And it's generally the opposite to a lot, not all of them. There are some studios that I felt like actually understood that there were. Their people were the most valuable thing and I think that they had sustainable models. But I think there's a lot of studios that were really based on like, we just need to get people in and fire them and.
And that was much more turbulent.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And I, you know, don't want to make this podcast beyond what it's meant to be. But, you know, it seems like you see that and more and more lately, it seems in business in general, like the short term, like I was just doing a, I just comment on someone's LinkedIn post about now. You know, cruise lines are changing their loyalty program. So it used to be if you cruise this much over some time, you got lifetime access. Now they're going back on and they're like, well, now you have to spend like, I don't know, $15,000 a year to maintain this status. Right?
Nye Warburton
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And I was asking on this like, thread, I'm like, do you think that's because they're like database, peer, spreadsheet people figured out this is a better long term player. Do you think it's just a short term. And most people were like, no, this is just like how we can maximize money in the short term.
Nye Warburton
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And then. And it seems like that model you're talking about, like the sustained success versus just like churn and burn, like just dead done. And then we'll worry about the next one when it's time for the next one.
Nye Warburton
I mean, that's just how the, the business runs. A movie gets greenlit, people like mad, furiously bid on it. Everyone contracts as quickly as possible. You scale up as quickly as possible, you turn, you know, and then. And sometimes it's extraordinarily amazing, right? I had, I had friends who worked at Rhythm and Hues in Los Angeles on Life of PI. That was like extraordinary.
Creating a tiger. I mean, now with AI, it's. It's kind of like whatever. But at that time, that was like the most advanced thing you'd ever seen that happen. But then Rhythm and Hughes went out of business, which just shows that the whole business is really based on a rapid burn in turn. Even when you have these phenomenal visual effects artists or animators or things like that, creating at a very, very high level, it's still just how quickly can we deliver and get it out? So I don't want to completely knock my time in la, so I will come back with it.
It was actually a fun experience. It was just an enormous amount of energy and a lot of late nights and I learned an incredible amount. And I work with some really awesome people and I'm grateful for the experience, but it has its costs.
Avish Parashar
Well, let's talk, let me talk a little bit more about your experience there. Because also I think I was about to say I don't think I could do that because of this. But then I realized it's sort of what my life is like now anyways. Because there's a certain amount of, of change and ding. Moments and instability. Right? Because like you said, it's not like you work really hard on a project and then you get a breather for the next one.
Like you are essentially everyone is done, fired, contract ends, and then you, like, you're out of a job essentially until you get hired for the next contract. Right. So how do you sort of manage that, both practically, logically, but also emotionally?
Nye Warburton
Well, the first is that I tell myself at the midpoint is lunchtime at the mid.
Avish Parashar
I.
Nye Warburton
If, let's say it's a six week project, at week three, I start calling a bunch of people to go to lunch because I'm trying to look, start lining up the next one.
Avish Parashar
Okay?
Nye Warburton
Right. So that's something that I always do and it just gives myself an excuse because it's really hard, you know how it is really hard to look for work and to do things. So if you start, be proactive and say, I'm having lunch with, you know, Fred because I hear that movie might be, you know, being discussed or something. You try to stay close to the ground because you're looking for the next gig.
Avish Parashar
So the LA lunch thing is not just a stereotype.
Nye Warburton
No, it's. It's hilarious. Preferably they live close to you, so you don't have to go to Pasadena if you're living on the west side. But yeah, so that's one thing that I do. I think you just get used to it. I was told on a Thursday that I was flying to Australia, and then on Friday morning say, no, they got, the plugs, got pulled. You're not going anywhere.
I've been dumped from projects many, many times. I mean, I was in New York when, you know, 9, 11 happened, and I remember they were just like, okay, you know, this studio is now closed because we have no. So I have been routinely been through a number of studios that have just been dumped for various reasons. And you just kind of get used to it.
And then you just. You learn to be multifaceted. One of the things I've also learned to do, and one of the reasons why I think I've learned technology at the rate that I have is that I just say, I know how to do so. I don't know if this is right or not, but people have been like, hey, Nye, can you do this? And I'm like, yes, I can.
Avish Parashar
And then you're going to.
Nye Warburton
Yeah, yes. And Right.
And then I go home on a weekend and I learn whatever I just said that I know how to do and hope that I have enough competency to be able to do it. Because what I put stock in is my ability to problem solve very quickly on the fly. And that's what you're getting. But the specifics of it or the software of IT or the. Or the discipline of IT is changing so rapidly. So I think you just have to learn to be adaptable. I have never worked a job longer than 14 months, except for when I started teaching.
Avish Parashar
That's amazing because I find that, like. And I talk about this in my keynotes and stuff, like, so many people are just afraid of uncertainty. And so I think developing that skill of like, all right, here's how I adapt. Now, you were forced into, and that's the way that you work. But I think so many could benefit from that. But I do want to talk about that say yes thing. I've been meaning to write this article or blog post a While I have like the note.
But you'll appreciate it, obviously. Obviously. You know Todd McFarlane, the artist, comical guy.
Nye Warburton
Yes, of course.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. I, he's so interesting and I love listening like interviews and stories about him. And he was on doing an interview on the Tim Ferriss podcast and he talked about like this toy fair he went to and he wanted to get his spawn toys made and you know, people like this and that. And as one person came to me and said, you know, oh, can you get, can you make these in a 5 inch size? And he was of course, like, oh, absolutely. And they're like, well, can you get it to us in time for the Christmas thing?
He's like, yes. And now he had, he didn't have a manufacturer, he had no idea how to make a 5 inch size. And in his, on the podcast he said, always say yes to the opportunity. Like, you will figure it out. Force still to figure it out. And I think that is such like a. It's like stepping into uncertainty, right?
It's like, I don't know, you know, but everyone has to have all. Everyone wants to have the. Not everyone, but so many people want to have the, the A to Z, the plan mapped out everything before they move forward. But like you said, you're just like, well, that.
Flip it a little bit.
Nye Warburton
There is that. There is. There is never. I have never worked on a project in my entire life that people have been like, this is what we're doing. And then it just went and did that. That has never ever happened on anything that I've ever worked for. Even if I have a complete vision and I've like storyboarded every single second, when you get into will change it. That's just.
And then you have to kind of say when you, when that happens, when you make a mistake, you just have to be like, is that cool? All right, yeah, why not?
I'll just go with it. Because if you stay firmed on, I've got to fix it because I got to stick with the plan. You're never going to finish.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And the one caveat I will say to that, because I always think about this is I think there's like, you know, there's gonna be some risk mitigation, right? It's not like, oh, someone comes, oh, can you do this? And in order to do it, you gotta mortgage your house and invest a hundred thousand dollars in this thing. And like, yeah, you know, but we conflate fear with like something like drastic like that versus like, oh, I might be a little Embarrassed or I might have to, you know, fail at something. Right. So I think there's like, there's logical extremes that you got to be careful about.
But in terms of professional growth, the.
Nye Warburton
Opportunity, like, I mean, bracket, bracket your risk. Say, man, I've always wanted to make an app that does X, Y and Z. Then give yourself one week, build a prototype and put it in front of a couple of friends, like, or if you're like, I have an idea for a graphic novel. Well, then draw some characters and then send it to some people and see if they like it. Make a website, you know, try. Put your energy into a really short, achievable goal for the idea and see if it gains traction, you know, and then you gain like energy out of it. Right.
Avish Parashar
Have you heard the. For the entertainment world, you know, the story of Friday the 13th?
Nye Warburton
No.
Avish Parashar
So the guy who, I forgot his name, but the guy who started Friday 13, the movie series, had the idea for Friday the 13th. Just the idea. He thought it'd be cool to make a horror movie. No idea about it. Took an ad out in a trade like, coming this Friday the 13th. And the response to it was so big that he went, made the movie just from like a static, not a, not a commercial, just a static image ad. So it's kind of like to your point, like it's.
And this is, you know, I'm working on this new book where I've got this. Yes and framework where each, each letter and. Yes and stands for a step. And the, the one I've been Talking about for 20 plus years is the S, which is start small and take small steps. It's like, you don't have to have, like you said, the whole plan. Just put the website together, put a prototype together, you know, sketch out a thing. Is that what you kind of shifting to the present?
Is that the approach you recommend to your, your students?
Nye Warburton
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's this expectation in teaching creativity that there is a method that you're going to learn. A method, a series of steps that everybody in the industry sort of subscribes to. And I think that it's good to have a sense of what that method is like. Animators animate at 24 frames per second and then they offset things and they use, you know, a set of principles. I'm of the mindset that everything is on the table and you should just like, iterate, but you should deliver. You should constantly deliver. And you know, when I started, I started moving into like game engines at the end of My entertainment career.
And one of the things that I found was the successful teams always pushed every week or every other week or whatever it was. There was like a regular sort of pace to it. And even if they had very little updates, it was always functional. So you'll see a lot of explosive creativity. But then you see they actually ship a functional working thing. And it might not be beautiful, but it's the iterative process of completely, like, hitting it and then looking at, hey, is this functional? Does this work?
What's the problem? And then listing all those problems, using that for the next push.
Avish Parashar
So when you're talking about. Yeah, sorry, just real quick question about that. When you're talking about pushes like that, are you talking about like a sprint to finish a whole thing? Are you talking about, like, doing, like, one segment and then shipping that and the next segment? Or. Or could it be either?
Nye Warburton
Yeah. So, you know, let's take a video game, for example. You start with, well, what is. What makes this thing fun? You build your. Your mechanic, your really simple mechanic. If you're jumping around, you want to build a character jumping around.
Okay, by Friday, I'm going to have a character jumping around. You play it, five people are like, this is awesome. I want to play more of this. Then you're like, okay, well, let me take that character and build a simple level out of it. Or let me make some sketches to see if there's a world around it or something. You do it incrementally. Right. I think what happens is a lot of artists think I'm going to make a fantasy game and they start drawing trees or a character, but they don't.
They don't build the little pieces that you need to kind of scale upon. And I think you can.
You can grow. You're not making a huge tree. You're making a baby tree. You're making the simplest, littlest thing, the best, most representative thing you're trying to make. As I've gotten, like, older, creatively, I've stopped like I used to be when I was younger. I was like, I'm going to make an epic movie. I'm going to make a multiplayer or whatever.
But now I'm like, I'm going to write a blog post. If I have an idea, I'm going to put in a blog post out. I'm going to see what kind of traction. I'll talk to some people, and then that's going to fuel my informed decisions. And I try to get my students or of other people that I talk to to think that, you know, iterative movement towards what you're working on. It's going to be changed. It's whatever. But you're kind of constantly taking sort of bite size and you're also coordinating everybody to be on that, like, in sync. Right. So we're like, hey, we're all in agreement that we're going to have the bad guy moving around by Friday.
And then you hit it by Friday. There's a celebration. Yeah, we all did it.
Now, what's next? Well, you know, the bad guy's moving around, but he sucks his sword is stupid and he doesn't have whatever. Well, how can we dress that up? Okay, next Friday we're going to have a scary bad guy. And that's kind of the mindset that I've moved towards. And so I, I don't really read as many. I used to read a lot of books which are like, you know, learn some Python framework in 24 hours or something, like, those kinds of books.
And I've moved into more sort of philosophical or maybe production books like productivity books, like the, the Ferris or Atomic Habits or things. Those kinds of things that make you think, okay, well, what kind of. What kind of milestones should I be shooting for and an outcome for? And the tooling will just evolve. Like, if I need a tool, I'll research it and I'll do it. I'm not going to. I'm not going to lead with learning Photoshop or a game engine.
I'm going to lead with. I want to make this thing over here and do it by Friday.
Avish Parashar
Like, I like that. It's very, like, improvisational sort of improv comedy.
Nye Warburton
Oh, yeah.
Avish Parashar
Approach. Right. It's like, well, here's my idea, but I'm just gonna make my one offer and let's see how people respond to it. Let's see how my. If my partner picks it up, let's see how the audience responds. And do we continue down that? Yeah, because, you know, you've.
You've done improvis. You know, the, the worst thing you can tell when an improviser has, like, an end in mind for their scene or story, and they're just not. They're just tunneling that way.
Nye Warburton
And it's, it's not. It's not coming to where it naturally should be.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And so this is kind of. I think it's, you know, for, like I said, a lot of people listening are probably not necessarily animators or game developers, but they're people working, you know, in corporate teams. But the same kind of rule applies. You've still got an idea for a project or an initiative at work. Same sort of thing. Like instead of trying to do the whole thing, just you know, what's that one piece you can you know, publish essentially, you know, quote unquote this next week?
Like what can I do this week that's going to move this a little bit forward and then we can evaluate what happened and what needs to be the next step.
Nye Warburton
Also you can fake it, right? You, if you get people to see what you're talking about, even if it's not fully functional, it's, that's almost worth it. So you know, going big and sensational but still having an action plan I think is, is very, very important. Most of my work in LA was working in pre visualization which means that we'd be on teams to develop what's going to happen in the movie because it was too cost expensive to do it with ILM or Sony or something is going to cost all that money. How do we do it really simply in the computer to say oh does this camera belong here and how much does this cost? It's a problem solving mechanism. But a lot of what previs really was used for was to go to an executive and an executive would be like this is a bank chase.
It's going to kind of look like this and they go, oh, you're going to have machine guns and explosions. I see why I'm spending the money on it. And so if you have an idea, because this happens to me all the time, I always get stuck in the functionality I try to like because tech is not as easy for me as drawing. So like getting the code to work, whatever and I'll show somebody and it's not really all that spectacular. Whereas if you create a good looking puppet of an image and you make some noises and explosions and people get excited about it, they're like oh well we're going to need a Python program to help it out because that's going to need that. You know, you need to have that selling point as much as you have the, the kind of like milestone mindset.
Avish Parashar
Oh, I love that. And that's really all about getting doesn't yet another reason to get started. It's not even necessarily to have the, the finished project but just to be able to get other people on board and show them what you're doing and, and then if you're being collaborative then they might come up with ideas that you didn't see if you get started.
Nye Warburton
Yeah, I try really hard to Also be open and kind of stupid. Like, a lot of my ideas are dumb, but people are like, oh, now you're such a nut. When they have a crazy idea, because people do have crazy idea, then they call me because they know that I'm, like, into crazy ideas. And so, you know, I think it just helps to be that. And then really, the only cost is just putting yourself out there, which I know is. And it's taken me a really long time to be able to just be like, screw it. You know, here it is.
Like, even when I was doing improv, there was always that I'm gonna. You know, we call it without a net for that reason at Penn. And it's just like, you. You have this incredible fear that you just have to step through. I still have a lot of problems dealing. I think we all do as creatives. And the only way to counteract that is almost to outrun run your own anxiety and just be like, blah, you know?
Avish Parashar
Well, which is yet another reason to ship, to publish, to produce. Because the more you do it, like, I'm like, you, like, I still hate the feedback I've done. I don't know, hundreds of presentations and keynotes. And yeah, I still, you know, every so often afterwards, the client would be like, oh, here's a compilation of the feedback forms. And I still, like, feel a little bit of, like, nervousness clicking open, you know, Even though, like, it went great. I know it went great. The client was happy.
It's like, you never quite get over that, like, fear of putting yourself out there. But it is easier now than it was. But if you're like, well, I need this thing to be so polished, to be feedback proof before I. I ship. Like, A, you're never gonna get there. B, no matter how polished it is, someone is still gonna not like it.
Nye Warburton
Yeah. I've discovered that if I have to push actual send now on my blog or anything like that, I won't do it. I actually have to schedule a post at 1:00 clock in the morning, so I'm asleep. And I won't even know that it's going out because I. I'm just. And then even sharing it on social media and things like that has still been really enormously difficult. In fact, I did a comic blog for a while called Nitoon.
I remember that probably, like, yeah, it was probably one of the most honest things I've ever done in my life. I didn't do it for money. I just did it for fun. And I started sharing it and I actually Got like tractionable audience. Like when I published an itunes at its height, it was maybe like a couple thousand, which is, you know, not, not bad. I freaked out because I iced myself. I couldn't write anything because I became more concerned with what people were going to read than my ability to write and whatever.
And I think ultimately it kept me from producing more, more content. And so, I mean, it would have helped if I had found a business model and you know, being a cartoonist and things like that, but I, I went off and did other things and I kind of regret that I didn't stick with it because if I had just kept the pace up. So I'm trying really hard now to keep a regular timber and almost not even care about what analytics or anything is. And that's why I automate things to try.
Avish Parashar
That's smart.
Nye Warburton
Push myself through it.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. That's fascinating though.
It's so funny because you said nitin you like did it with no business goal or anything. It was just for yourself or just like some fun to do.
Nye Warburton
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And even as it was just something fun to do, you started to feel that pressure of like the likes, the reviews. How are people going to like this? Even though it was really just something you're doing for yourself. It is amazing how much we care about and I can totally relate to that. I mean I'm, you know, most of the stuff I do has a business purpose, but I'm still always looking at the analytics and who's reading this and did it get any shares and totally. And just kind of thinking back to that, like me trying to remind myself about that authenticity. Well, what do you.
I do have to remind myself that because I get so caught up in best practices and here's kind of how what the algorithm likes and I really, I recently just went through this and I, I. It's funny. Long story short, I'm using Chad GPT to help format some things and even through a program with a special custom GPT. And, and it's great. It takes my content, it makes it sound a certain way. But then I realized it's starting to sound like everything that everyone's posting on LinkedIn.
Nye Warburton
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
So I went through this thing, like almost a meltdown and we're literally just Sunday. Like I've list at this time of this like 5 days ago where I had this chat with Chad GPT about Chad GBT in the format and I'm like, this all sounds the same. Like this needs to be more me. And so I like completely rewrote this Post I was much happier with because I kind of like what you're saying is like, I was maybe not necessarily following the best practices anymore, but it felt much more authentic.
Nye Warburton
And, and me, yeah, my kids are into David Bowie, which I think is kind of cool that I get to re listen to some of this music that is now talk about 40.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, that's awesome.
Nye Warburton
But there's a quote in their room where David Bowie talks about one of his creative drivers is to do the thing that scares him. Like he's doing something and he feels a little nervous or scared about it. It's a cue to him that he's kind of going to a more authentic place. And I think about that quote a lot because as I try to write and think about things I like what should I write about? And the easy thing to say is, well, let me just go and well, a lot of people want to know about this thing with AI but then I have this fear or this nagging something or other that is kind of outside of that. And I've been pushing to that because it's just, it scares me. And so I think I'm using that my kind of anxieties and my fear as a more authenticative.
In fact, I would say Nitun was actually motivated by me wanting to be creative because I felt, you know, stuck in sort of corporate environments a lot. And that also was fueled by anxiety. So you have to channel in what, what makes you productive. And it's, I think you get better stuff about it. The problem is it doesn't have the same sort of, you know, reach. Google's not going to like you as much if you're unique. I think is, is part of the problem.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And it's, it's interesting because then, you know, reach in this day and age might be a little overrated as well though, because reaching the people, like a smaller group of people that really like and support you versus the let me go viral and get a million views and likes on this. But now in an era of tick tock and things like that, like going viral for so many people is the goal versus like connecting with kind of your tribe.
Nye Warburton
And I think that's a hundred percent my mission with what I've been doing recently because, and it's working. I'm connecting with a small audience of people who I talked to one person who was like, you should do tick tock or it's like that's not really my thing.
I don't want to make myself accessible. I want to speak to a Number of people who. Well, first of all, I want to talk to the next younger generation who are kind of sort of tuning into it. But I do want to talk to people about these things. And I think it's better to connect with a small number of people who are reasoned and understand than just batching something everywhere. Right. Getting Something viral on TikTok is a completely different skill than trying to put an argument out.
Avish Parashar
Well, let's talk about. Let's talk about those two things first, starting with your blog or your regular writing, which you do once a week. Is that on?
Nye Warburton
I have been. Yeah. So I made the commitment in December. Like, I was like, next year, every week. And I've since December, I've done a blog post every week. And at first I was like, oh, this is going to be easy. I'll use AI.
But it's actually become increasingly difficult because the more I experiment with AI, the more conscious I'm aware that I have to produce content that I feel is compelling or authentic. And so it's actually getting harder and harder. I feel I'm facing the same pressures potentially that I felt with building iTune.
Avish Parashar
Well, it's interesting because some of your recent posts have been about, like, I wrote a post and I had AI wrote a post, and Post was better than mine. So what do I do now? Like, you're. You're kind of writing about your experience with that as well.
Nye Warburton
Yes.
Avish Parashar
Well, let's take a step back before we kind of dig into that.
Nye Warburton
Sure.
Avish Parashar
For people listening. So you're. This. Is you hosted on Paragraph? Is that.
Nye Warburton
Yeah, I host my blog on Paragraph. So Paragraph is a. A decentralized blogging platform that's on the blockchain, basically. I ch. I was using a platform called Mirror, but I migrated to. To Paragraph, and I chose that specifically as opposed to a substack because I do believe that, you know, the blockchain might be a way for us to record our intellectual property. And. And so I talk.
There are some blog posts that are about that as well. So I'm talking about where technology is going from a creative point of view. Right. So if I am a creative who is currently engaged as a designer, what are the things that I'm thinking about? Where is technology going? What are the jobs going to be? I spend a lot of time, as in my day job, thinking about where students four or five years from now are going to be and trying to imagine that.
But then specifically from the context of somebody who was a game developer, an animator or designer or creative. And so That's a lot of the motivation of what I write about.
Avish Parashar
Got it. So. Well, let's ask the million dollar question, Nye.
Where is technology going?
Nye Warburton
I mean, that's a multi faceted question. One thing that motivates me the most to that question is I have a blog post coming out that I'm, I'm calling the Biff Problem, which I think might be great to share with you. Is that in Back to the Future, two older Biff gave his younger Biff a sports almanac and as a result he fractured time. And then when Marty went back to 1985, Biff was essentially the emperor of Hill Valley. Yeah, he owned Marty's mom, he killed Marty's dad, he had all the cops, Everybody was living in terror. And that was basically because he had the ability to predict the future. He had data that could predict the future.
And I think that if you look at the Sports Almanac, it's, it's a, it's a sort of parable for what's happening with AI. And I think that there's a small number of people who know how to use it really, really well. And my concerns are that we are going to have a lot of BIFFs and then there's going to be a lot of negative externalities. In fact, you might argue that that might even be happening in some ways. And so, yes, I'm very interested in how creativity and AI and things like, in terms of like practical, like what application do I open and how do I combine this LLM with this thing? And that's part of it, but the other part of it is like how do we create systems that keep the BIF problem from happening? And that means exploring new technologies in ways.
So I think we're going to rapidly accelerate in AI and the question is, is it going to be a handful of companies or is it going to be more of a communal effort? And I think that that conversation just needs to be had a lot more because I think there's a number of dangers that we should just speak out loud. I mean, nuclear bombs went off and people freaked out. I don't think we've had quite a nuclear bomb moment with AI yet, but we, but it's possible. And so I think we just kind of need to have these, these conversations about it. And so raising awareness and speaking about it is something that I'm kind of passionate about.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, and it makes sense. Obviously I didn't think you'd have a real answer to like, like a no simple answer to where it's yeah, it's the one area I'm seeing is. And especially in the creative field, and this is through some of my social media feeds, there's just a huge number of people who are against AI, especially in creativity, which I understand the point of view, but I also think it's like the putting the head in the sand. It's a. It's like, you know, toothpaste out of the tube type situation, which is. I'm not saying we just got to go all in and lit AI do all our creativity for us, but it is like not just saying, well, I'm never going to use it, because I think it's like, it's just, it's. It's here and it's not by not using it like it's.
Or by being so against it, it's not like you're gonna stop it from happening.
Nye Warburton
That's true. But I think that argument only carries so much water. I mean, I try to argue with a lot of artists all the time about whether or not they want. Most artists are absolutely against it because they feel that their work is being stolen. And I think that is an accurate.
Avish Parashar
Assessment that I agree with.
Nye Warburton
And so one of the counters that I had is imagine if you could control your own AI, whether it's locally or open source or something, and then you used your data in a way that you got productivity gains, or you controlled your data in a way that other people could use it and you could monetize it. And I think that has to be figured out because we haven't figured that out. Right now we're looking at a world where you won't need a creative animator or developer or whatever, because somebody who has no skill will be able to prompt their way to it or use AI in some sort of way to do that. And that's great. That might mean smaller teams and maybe some more interesting creative work. Someone who never made a video game before can now make a video game or make an app.
That's going to be very exciting. But I think the counter is that people want to know that their work isn't going to be appropriated.
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Nye Warburton
And I think if we really had an honest conversation about who controls the data, you might find more artists interested in. In utilizing it, because right now they're not even engaging with it.
They're just putting the wall up. And we really need a lot more engagement and a lot more discussion.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And then that's kind of. So that's one of the reasons you're writing the blog also, is to Kind of stimulate some of those conversations and discussions, raise awareness.
Nye Warburton
It just also helps to know, you know, when I say talking about AI and they don't read it, they were like, I saw you wrote about AI, you know, okay, great. At the very least they know that I'm speaking about it, I'm talking about it and I'm trying to, to be a little bit. That alone is valuable if they just, if somebody is talking about it. Um, it's kind of also hypocritical because very often they say they don't use it or whatever, but they're using ChatGPT and then they think it's just like Googling, you know. And then also they use software where AI is incredibly integrated into all of our uses and workflows, but they don't really think about it as AI, they just, oh, it's a software. So I think it's more just like about deliberately engaging with technology and understanding that, you know what it is and what it's doing and the implications of it. I think that's the best case we can have right now to just kind of raise awareness and then stimulate that conversation and then to where it's going.
It really could go anywhere. But we have to, we have to deliberately shape it.
Avish Parashar
Okay, well, that's a, I agree with that. It's an interesting conversation. It's conversation that more people need to be having right now, 100%. But like anything else, it's, I do think it's engaging with it in some way versus just completely shutting down around it.
Nye Warburton
Yeah, putting the hands up and shutting down. I mean, that does not help you. I mean, if I don't use it and I continue just to write emails and you use it, you know, you're just using GPT or Claude or something just even to write faster emails, in two months you're going to just be more productive than I am. You're going to get to that client faster. You're going to get. And I think you're going to start seeing that happen. Amongst society, business expectation will just be, you need to use it.
And so it's better that you're informed when that conversation comes to you, that you know, you know how to engage it.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And because I think I'm finding in some of the people who are very opposed to it, their arguments come across as someone who doesn't really understand it, which I think if you want to intelligently argue against something, you should take the time to understand it, you know, but just throwing your hands up because of like Some surface level understanding of the tool and being like, nah, like this is terrible because this and this.
Nye Warburton
Like, well, it's also very difficult to understand because I think that we are completely creating a new computing way. Right. You know, you're, you're used to be a programmer a long time ago. Like you, there's a front end and a back end and you make calls and you write to a database. And now we're just talking about huge mathematical models in compute and energy and we're going to interact by talking to it and waving at it. And I just think there's going to be a huge destabilization in the way that we use these tools. And people are just expecting, well just be Google.
Avish Parashar
Right.
Nye Warburton
I'll just be googling it. But I really think there's going to be a profound change.
Avish Parashar
And now are you fighting since you're working with younger people?
Nye Warburton
Yep.
Avish Parashar
Do you think there's gonna be like a generational divide? Because like people who've been working a certain way for 20, 30 years, I mean some obviously are jumping in, but a lot are like, well, I'm just gonna use it like Google or here's my versus, you know, college students or even younger who in their formative years are starting to adopt AI.
Nye Warburton
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Like, are you gonna see, are they going to be miles ahead? Because by the time they get into the workforce they're going to be like way faster.
Nye Warburton
It's definitely a concern I have. I think that there's going to be like, if you just look at regular technology, when I would work with a row of artists in la, there are some animators that could animate twice as fast as me and twice as better. Like they just are more productive. And I was always like, well how did you do that? And they're always really good at like, you know, having shortcuts and little drop downs and you know, being able to circle things and do it and, and they just have methodologies of just being insanely productive. And I think if you apply that same kind of someone's going to have a hotkey where they can wave to their AI and it's going to wind up automating xy. They're just going to be a week better than you, a week faster than you are.
That's, that's going to have profound effects, I think for sure.
Avish Parashar
Well, this is sort of getting a little heavy, potentially doom and gloomy.
Nye Warburton
Yeah, I know.
Avish Parashar
I want to, I'm going to finish up. We're kind of coming to the end here before we do that, though. I want to tie it all back to something you said right at the beginning. When you're talking about kind of how you were working and you use a phrase, you know, I was always playing or I'm always playing.
Nye Warburton
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And I think that is the, the thing that can make all this better kind of goes back to an improv thing. And the mindset of like, yeah, change is scary. Learning a new technology is intimidating. Wondering how the different the world's going to be. Am I going to be obsolete as someone 30 years younger me can take my job over? And I think one of the best ways to combat that and to get started is to think of it as play, not as like, oh, my God, I got to learn AI. So I.
But like, just, just, just play with the tool or you want to draw, like, play with drawing or, you know, you want to learn a new skill at work, like, play with it. Don't put so much pressure on it, because that pressure creates that paralysis.
Nye Warburton
100. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I could say it any better than that. I think there's an awful lot of pressure on. I mean, you still in the work environment, need to deliver, which is why what I started with was the milestones. But within those milestones, anything is on the table. You can solve that problem any way you're able.
And the more you are, like, scanning the Internet and say, oh, what's that tool? And you just download it and poke at it and throw it in a folder a week later, because you went through that little playing exercise, you know that that is a possible problem solver. And I think you just have to kind of be that constantly. I mean, I said that I was the guy, kind of the crazy guy that people like. I got a crazy idea.
Let me talk to Nye. And like, if you're open to that and want to play with that, you're just exposed to more interesting things, I think.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And it all becomes kind of fodder for your creative subconscious. Kind of the. Just one more tool in your toolbox, a new way of looking at things.
Nye Warburton
A different perspective, which is good. Comes back to increasingly important because there won't be a method you're going to be confronted with a problem or something you're going to have to do. You're going to see an AI model. You're not going to know whether you're going to need to evaluate that one or work with it or maybe, you know, you want to work with this one, with this. Like you want to Use a little. It's like you're cooking and. And sure, you can use a recipe, but I think, you know, the best ones have flair and style and all that sort of stuff.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, I've always been a recipe follower and I always make this sounds very braggy, but, like, you know, we do this, like, regular Tuesday potluck with our group of friends who all have kids the same age. And yeah, I get a lot of compliments on my cooking. And for a long time I'm like, am I really. Am I a good cook? Or. I was really good at fighting at a. And. And following recipes, which, you know, are they different?
But through that long process of just following recipes, now I've started develop the ability to be like, oh, I don't have this ingredient. Here's what I can substitute. Or, oh, I think this needs a little more of this. But I think you mentioned something, you kind of follow the method. At first you have to, like, learn the method and follow the method, but then you improvise, then you learn, then you break it.
Nye Warburton
Yeah. And I could use the same analogy with the way that I learned to kind of. I wouldn't even say I'm a programmer. Like, I just use GitHub and I know, like, oh, I need that piece, and I need that piece, and I can kind of smash them together and then change out a couple of variables. Like, I don't think I could actually build a full program, but I am absolutely a smash it together kind of guy.
Avish Parashar
It was. It was really funny to me on social media years ago when you first started posting about, like, game stuff. And I'm like, what the hell does I know about games? Like, what is he doing writing about games? You just, like, kind of went out and just started doing it.
Nye Warburton
I made my. I was just like, I'm gonna make a game. And I did it. And then the first one sucked, and then I made another one and I got a few players and then I got a contract. And you just.
Avish Parashar
It's. It's. So. It's. You take the three things right. You got the curiosity, so you scratch the itch. You take a playful mindset so you're not overthinking.
You're just having fun. And you just start and iterate like that. I mean, I just literally defined improv comedy. I literally defined innovation, like game design, any project. Like, just do those things and you'll get somewhere.
Nye Warburton
I really think doing improv as a formative thing in my life was one of the most, like, I mean, you're you're teaching, but also just the group that we were with, it was always like somebody would like fire something and then it was, you're on. You're trying to like top the guy or do a joke or like get to that joke faster. And I think there's sort of this. I'm still doing that. I'm just using computers and technology and all kinds of crap, but I'm still trying to tell jokes and break things.
Avish Parashar
Yeah, it's the mindset. So I'm gonna, we're gonna finish up here in a few minutes. I'm gonna ask a couple quick short questions before we do that. People want to follow your writing, learn about you, connect with you.
What's the best way? We'll put all the links in the, in the show notes, but what are the best ways for people to contact?
Nye Warburton
So my. You can go to n.warburton.com it's sort of my, you know, my, my resume, my. My homepage. Then you can.
There's a blog link up there. My blog is linked there. But you can also go to paragraph.com nywarburton.e and I have a project that is nearing completion that I'm calling Ninth Dimension. It's a personal server that I've set up with my own. I'm using llama, which is an open source model, and I'm trying to train it with my essays. And so I'm hoping that in the next couple of weeks you'll be able to start chatting with my essays. I'm putting myself on the hook by announcing it out loud, but that's, that's my motivation to try to get my bot out. So.
Avish Parashar
And this is, and this is the thing you were talking about, about like creating your own kind of personal AI that like you train.
Nye Warburton
I control it. I control the personal server, I control the data that's with it. And then the data that I'm training with is on blockchain through my blog. And my. I'm trying to model of. Is this right? Is this, is this what we're going to start moving towards when you start control, you know, your autonomy over your own work?
So it's an experiment. I'm not really seeing it as a product or whatever, but it's just sort of a way for me to continue to scratch this, this idea that I'm thinking through. So, yeah. N.warburton.com but look out for ninth dimension.
Avish Parashar
All right, well, I'll put all those links in the show notes as well. A couple quick questions first. You Mentioned is, you know, when we were doing improv like 25 years ago, we had a small group of guys who were all kind of very good friends. And it was just like we're playing off each other.
Nye Warburton
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
You recently. Did you make a video recently, a YouTube video using AI of pandas?
Nye Warburton
That's correct.
Avish Parashar
Did you make that intentionally and do you even remember that one of the funniest things you did when we were doing improv comedy. Yes. We did this game called Cutting Room where you like, cut to different things. And we said cut to the scene of this monster attacking the city and was a panda. And you played the panda and all you did was sit on your butt, pretend to chew bamboo and then fall over. And you did it over and over and we just could not stop laughing at this. You were like, oh, I just saw a documentary and that's all the pandas did.
So was that in your head when you made that video?
Nye Warburton
Probably. I mean, why do I go to pandas often? I feel I think they're funny. And I mean, maybe that's not improv. Maybe that's just something that I always bring in. Right. So it could have been there.
It actually I was just screwing around with have a panda talking. And one of those clips just made me thought it was hilarious. So I just kept going with it and then it generated a one minute. Yeah, it's. I should. Yeah, I should post that. It's a.
It's a one minute documentary I did about pandas.
Avish Parashar
So that's funny. Second thing, which is more about me, but you know, we talk about playful. Just try it and you'll appreciate this. I just had a birthday and one of the things I bought for myself is I've always wanted to draw. Like, I always thought it'd be cool. I have no artistic ability. In fact, I'm so bad at.
My handwriting is almost illegible. So like, I'm terrible. But I want. So I bought a book from a long time ago called Drawing Comics the Marvel Way.
Nye Warburton
Oh, I love that book.
Avish Parashar
And you know, I'm reading it and I'm like, ah, it's starting out. I'm like, this is because every book about drawing I've ever read is assumes a base level of knowledge I do not have. It's always like, oh, just do this. I'm like, no, that doesn't work. But then I got to the chapter where it's like, oh, just start by drawing stick figures. And like usually draw stick figures for like weeks. What's that?
Nye Warburton
Yeah, lines. Lines of action. I had a.
Avish Parashar
Yes, it did that. It's like, draw the line of action. And.
Nye Warburton
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And so we did, like, like, my youngest son likes to draw, and my wife likes drawing. She's really good at drawing. So we did, like, family drawing night, and my older son joined in. We all just sat at a table and drew. And all I did is I took up my Marvel Unlimited app and I went to, like, old comic book covers that I remember from my youth, and I just, like, drew stick figures of the.
Of the covers. And A, it was fun, and B, I was, like, shocked. Even though it's just stick figures. Right. I'm. I'm. I was like, how.
I was, like, so proud of the outcome, but it's just like that thing of, like, just play with a skill and try it. I'm like, well, but I thought of you so many times because I'm like, you're, like the person I know who actually draws, like, comics and comic strips and stuff. I'm like, oh, it's like, nigh, but a little bit more advanced.
Nye Warburton
It's a great book. And the thing that's awesome about that book is the use of camera. There's. I think there's a great page in there where, like, it goes down to the doc. Dr. Strange, as Dr. Strange enters the room, and it's like the camera has been lowered.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And it shows you, like, here's the top, here's the middle.
Nye Warburton
And like, oh, that's a great. That's a great one. Yeah. Give that to your kids to learn how to draw. For sure. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Well, we're drawing together.
Nye Warburton
Don't. Don't lose those skills. I. I actually think drawing and that kind of stuff, you know, screw AI. I really think it's still important that you learn to, like, express yourself. And whether it's drawing or improv or talking or splattering paint on something, I think that that's going to be more valuable. I don't know what or how.
It might not be dollars, but it's certainly going to be more valuable.
Avish Parashar
Well, I also think that's where it's like, just kind of doing it for yourself right now. Like, yeah, like. Like, find your creative itch and scratch it. Because even if commercially it all gets outsourced out to AI, like, there's still individual benefit to creating and pursuing, even for yourself.
Nye Warburton
And, like, I have. The things I have up on my wall are for my kids. It's, like, personalized stuff or when someone makes a funny comic about me at work and I Stick it on my. I mean, that's the stuff that you really have attachment to. And I think that will be more valuable if anyone can generate just a comic one that comes from you that's personally, to me is going to be that much more important.
Avish Parashar
I love that. Hey, real quick, I saw last time we talked that you had a Dogman poster on your wall. Is that just because you like Dogman or do you like, know the creator of Dogman?
Nye Warburton
No, it's because my kid reads them obsessively. And so, you know, it was important for me to put a Dogman poster in my room because my 7 year old really wanted to have a Dogman poster on the wall.
Avish Parashar
Got it. My older one does. He likes.
He's ten and a half. All those. That's. That's a spin off of Captain Underpants, right?
Nye Warburton
Yeah. DAV Pilkey.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. Yeah. So he, he reads those, plus the big names, all that.
So I'll just care. That's the post. I'm like, oh, like my kid likes that too. I don't know, you know some of these people. So I'm like, oh, does I know Dave Pilkey?
Nye Warburton
I know some animators, but not that guy. So.
Avish Parashar
Gotcha. Gotcha. All right. Hey now, this has been great. I want to finish up with my kind of final question. I ask everyone who's on the podcast, which is, you know, I talk about the idea of saying yes, and instead of yes, but because I honestly believe the world would be a better place if everyone just started with a mindset of yes, and instead of yes, but we more positive, more collaborative, more creative. So what is one small thing that you believe if everyone just did this one small thing, it would make the world a better place?
Nye Warburton
Oh, wow.
Avish Parashar
Can be anything. Doesn't necessarily have to do with like what we talked about here. Just like one thing. If everyone did, hey, I think the world will be better.
Nye Warburton
I think. I think if everybody wrote or created something or made a thing and put it out there, that experience, whether no one looked at it or everyone looks at it, that alone is incredibly hard. So you just got to do it once. I think if everybody just did it once, just made something, did a thing, they would learn that's not so scary. I would say, oh, I. I know because I have a lot of students who teach, I teach game development. I've discovered the most difficult thing is getting them to open the game engine for the first time.
It's just opening the engine and if you can construct a mechanism where they open the engine and they learn like, oh, it's just software and they reduce all of the fears. And so whenever you're learning anything new, whether it's a game or drawing or doing, just do the first one.
Just do it. And like, don't think about it. I think if everyone did that, I think first of all they would see an explosion of ideas and content and stuff like that. But then also I think people would have a little bit more confidence in themselves in general.
Avish Parashar
I love that. That comes back to just, you know, get started. Right? Take the first start.
Nye Warburton
Just start.
Avish Parashar
Love it. Well, Nahe, this is great. Thank you. Very great catching up with you and love learning from you and kind of hearing all these cool things you've been working on. So thank you for sharing. Everyone listening. Check out Nye stuff.
We'll put all the links in the show notes and yeah, go create something. Go get started.
Nye Warburton
Yeah, get started. Thanks, man.
Avish Parashar
Thank you.