
In this episode, I talk with Penny Zenker—the Focusologist—about her Reset Mindset approach. We dive into what exactly a reset moment is, explore her three‑step framework (Step Back, Get Perspective, Realign), and apply it to everyday life—from emotional triggers to workplace pivots. Penny also breaks down how to ask powerful questions like “What else?” to shift thinking, how to scale reset practices, and why it matters now more than ever.
Key Takeaways
Recognize Reset Moments: These are small or large interruptions—your alarm, emotional trigger, organizational shift—telling you it's time to pause.
Step Back → Get Perspective: Use curiosity (“What else? How else?”) and tools (time constraints, breathing cues) to shift thinking.
Realign: Set next-step actions that align with your goals or values; intention plus follow-through matters.
Reset Mindset vs Growth Mindset: Penny builds on Carol Dweck’s model—dynamic reassessment & adaptability are key today.
Mini Reset Hack: Try breathing out longer than you breathe in (“sigh breath”) at the top of every hour to activate calm.
Relevant Links
Penny’s website & resources: pennyskeynote.com
Penny’s book, The Reset Mindset
Unedited Transcript
Avish
Hello, Penny Zen, and welcome to the podcast. How are you, Avish?
Penny Zenker
Thank you so much for having me here. I'm excited.
Avish
This is fantastic. I'm excited, too. We've known each other for a few years and we've actually spoken at a few of the same events. And I've got to see some of your speaking, you've got to see some mine. So this is cool, you know, say to a few people I've interviewed on here. When I first launched a podcast, I kind of made a list of, oh, you're the people I got to reach out to and you were one of them. And then we happened to see each other an event a few weeks ago.
So, you know.
Penny Zenker
That's right.
Avish
It's nice. It's almost like a little reset moment. Instead of me procrastinating, putting it off, I was like, oh, this is part of the strategy. Let me.
Penny Zenker
That's right, exactly. And then you get to do it now.
Avish
Right, exactly, exactly. So I just mentioned the reset mindset, which obviously, or moment, which is your sort of brand and topic. But for people who are unfamiliar with you, I'd like to start with just if you could give us the kind of one minute Penny Zenker overview, you know, kind of who you are and what you're up to.
Penny Zenker
Sure. I am a international keynote speaker and my topic is around what, what I call own your focus. And that's where the reset mindset comes in. Because I, I was like, well, people want to know how, yes, I want to own my focus today in this crazy, distracted world. And we do that through what you just said, reset moments and having a reset mindset, which is to be. There's three basic principles a part of that. But anyway, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.
I talk about the reset mindset and how to own your focus and how that can be a huge impact stress reliever and also spark creativity in a world where we need to be more adaptable and be able to access our creativity and resourcefulness. So it gives us those resources. That's kind of what I'm all about.
Avish
Got it. And we're going to. Obviously, Reset Mindset is your newer book. You had a first book that was on productivity. And we're going to go, we're going to talk a lot about the reset and reset mindset, but I'll first go back a little bit to you also. Look, on your website, you kind of title yourself a focusologist.
Penny Zenker
That's right. I'm the focusologist.
Avish
You are the focusologist.
Penny Zenker
In my intro I got so excited to be here, I forgot.
Avish
So what to just talk a little bit about that because, you know, you already talked about the word focus, you know, and you were somewhat own your focus. So how did that start for you? Because I know you worked and, you know, kind of like a normie type person, and you kind of applied some of these principles and launched on your own. So where did this focus on the topic of focus come from for you?
Penny Zenker
It's just always been a common thread. I think it's, especially as speakers, we try to figure out what's different about us, how do we think about things in ways that other people might not. And for me, that thread is always about focus. Ever since I went to college, I went to Drexel University, and it was about how do I find a job in this crazy marketplace? My brothers were having trouble finding a job.
Where do I focus? What do I hone in on what I found going to Drexel and as my life unfolded is.
Focus isn't just about attention. Focus is about understanding what problem you're solving and then being able to identify the drivers that help you to solve that. And I have a little bit of a focus framework that that tells us is about attention, intention, and then also context of what we're talking about. But it's just always been about every time I was coaching executives as a strategic business coach or working my way through life, it was always understanding what's the most important thing right now in this context, but not losing sight of where it is that I'm going. Not too narrow focus, right? There's a time to zoom in and then there's a time to zoom out. And so that's.
That's kind of what I'm all about. And every experience that I've had leads me back to. To that idea of zooming in and zooming out and being adaptable. That's a key factor for me.
Avish
And I can see that now as you describe it, because I remember when I. Because I saw you speak a decent number of years, I believe, before you wrote the reset mindset.
Penny Zenker
So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Avish
Then it was more about focus and productivity. And so when I was reading your material on reset mindset, I'm like, oh, but she's still calling the focusologist. And but now when you're talking about zooming in, zooming out, and after having read the book the Reset Mindset, I can see how it all kind of dovetails together because the reset mindset is about what you're focusing on. When are you focusing on it and how are you using your focus? So that's. And I want to get into that.
Just got a side note. It's. The other thing is, especially with the reset mindset, as I was reading it, all these little bells were going off in my head about how similar our content is, is. But different. Like we, we approach similar things. Like, you talk about reset moments, I talk about ding moments. You know, you talk about focus in a lot of ways, I talk about focus on what you can control, let go of the rest. Right. And that's one of the things you talk about.
So there's a lot of alignment. And so I want to get dig into that with you. So let's kind of the big picture. We've used this phrase reset, reset mindset a few times. So for people haven't read your book yet. First off, go get the book and read it.
But secondly, could you give us the overview? What is, what do you mean by the reset mindset?
Penny Zenker
Sure. And you know, you're so right in that there's a lot of overlap. I see. Yes. And that simple cue and phrase as a reset practice because so within I'll back up, but then come back to what a reset practice is. So there's a couple of different elements. Right. The reset mindset is the, is the overarching meta model.
It's for us to understand that it's a way of thinking, just like you talk about with yes and Right. It's, it's more than just the words. It's when we repeat them over and over again, it becomes a mindset in the way that we look at the world, the way that we interact with the world, which is what a mindset really is. So the reset mindset is the idea that we interact with the world in a much more adaptive. You know, we learn how to dance with life by continually resetting and understanding that there's always new information that's coming in that's helping us either continue down the same path or to take another path. And there's three basic, let's say, principles to it, which is value creation that we're always having an eye on how we create value. The second one is about dynamic reassessment.
So how we're constantly checking in with this environment that's constantly changing and then a willingness to reinvent. It's not enough just to recognize that things are changing. We have to be willing and open to make that change, to go in a different direction, to try something new, to open up to new perspectives. So Those three together are extremely powerful. And when we live in that place, it means that we hold a specific set of beliefs. That's what a mindset is, is a cluster of beliefs that help us to interact with the world in the way that we do. And the, the reset practice is the way that we reset and that we do it over and over again.
That, that meta model of step back, get perspective and realign. It's that overarching what way that we think that helps us to stay on track. And that happens in a reset moment. The reset moment is the trigger, the signal that we recognize that goes, okay, now's the time to reset. Hopefully that puts those concepts together, to understand how they fit together.
Avish
Yeah. And I would like, if it's okay, you dig a little bit deeper into each of those three. Before we do that, I do have a sort of a side question for you. Are you a little bit of a nerd?
Penny Zenker
I guess I am. I mean, I don't know.
Avish
I'm reading your book, Lee. You talk about meta models and there's talk about neuroscience in your book and all this research, and I'm like, oh, I never. I mean, believe me, I'm for it. I'm. I'm 100 there. So I love it. The more, you know, it's not just like, oh, here's my thoughts.
It's like, oh, here's the sort of the science behind in the research. And so I just, you know, I figured I'd throw that out there, you.
Penny Zenker
Know, but it's interesting. I am, but I'm not. Like, I also get lost in the details. Like my. When I became CEO of a market research company, I had to read all of the. I wasn't from that industry and I had to read a ton of these direct marketing concepts and the way that you run these, these campaigns and everything, and in detail to understand the numbers. And I swear to God, I fell asleep every time I started to read the book.
And I thought, oh, my goodness, I am going to totally, you know, bomb at this role, because I can't. It must not be that fascinating to me. But I realized there's a certain. I'm more of a. Too much detail can get me overloaded and shut me down. So I think I'm in between. I really like to know a lot of different things, and I like to go deep quickly and then come back up.
But I think I'm more of, how does this fit into the big picture kind of person and know enough in the detail in order to, To. To Have a wider scope, if that makes sense.
Avish
It does. And especially as a speaker now, consultant, CEO in the past, like that is probably important. That's the, you know, the focusing you mentioned. Right. Like focusing real in being able to focus back and having that perspective is probably what leaders and consultants and advisors should be doing. So it was just the words you were dropping. I'm like, you know, I was, I was like to find others in the wild.
So it's, it was good to know. All right, so we talk reset moments, reset practice. And you said there's three steps. So I'd like to go a little bit deeper into to the three steps, if that's, if that's cool with you.
Penny Zenker
Yeah, let's do it.
Avish
So the first one is step back. So well, let's even take it before then a little bit. The reset moment you kind of mentioned briefly, like it's that. So what constitutes a reset moment? Is it, is it a ding moment, like call where something unexpected happens, a setback, or is it something, something else? Is it, are they big, are they small? Like what.
What would constitute a reset moment?
Penny Zenker
Yes, and it is a yes. And because it is. Yes, it is those ding moments where something unexpected happens. So that's a moment to identify.
Okay, I really need to be intentional here. Potentially. Right. Depending on the context and the, and the gravity of the situation, I need to be really intentional. So that would make it a reset moment to really get intentional.
But it's also moments that are planned. We can be proactive and create a reset moment by checking in with someone. Right. And it can be planned. Every morning we have a team meeting just to check in and make sure. Are there any major issues that we need to address that could be a reset moment where everybody is realigning together about what's most important.
Avish
What's funny, As I asked the question, I was thinking about your book and one of the. You give examples at the end and the first example was just the alarm clock goes off and when I reach the red that I'm like, oh, that's that, that's just like an everyday thing. That's a reset moment. But then you realize that, oh well, how you respond in that moment can actually align your entire day. And that's a pre planned moment as well.
Penny Zenker
Exactly right. And. And it's when you're not getting, when you're not in alignment, anytime you're not in alignment. So if you're feeling frustrated or out of sorts, those are reset moments. Recognize those signals that things are not okay and when too often we push it down, we push it away, we ignore that mean, nasty comment that somebody said to us instead of, hey, what's going on? Right. A reset moment would be to address the situation because something's not in alignment, whether our expectations are off.
But also a reset moment is also what many people think of as a big change in your life. And a reset moment can be also, it can span a week, a month, as, as the way you look at something like maybe your, you know, your marketplace is changing and you need to start maybe your change your messaging or look at new audiences that you're looking to reach. And so that may take longer time period to research and understand. And so, you know, reset moments are also the zoom in and zoom out, right? They're, they're. But then if it's a bigger one, you're going to have lots of little ones in between. And I know that it sounds like it makes it more complex and it's supposed to actually make the complex much more simple.
So it takes it into smaller bites.
Avish
Got it. And I like, I like something you said there because since it can be big, it can be small, it can be every day, it can be planned, can be reactive. But what I love is you said anytime you makes you feel unaligned or out of sorts. And I talk about this that, you know, in improv, I learned that, you know, emotion drives content, which is how you feel, kind of directs your creativity, your thoughts, your emotion. And here's the same way, and I think in our society, we're so often taught does message and I'll say especially men, but are taught that like, feelings don't matter, like, who cares how you feel?
Just do the work. But what this is saying is we'll pay attention to those feelings because, and you had probably one of my favorite lines, and I think this was, you may have said this in the book, but I definitely heard it in one of your videos when your speeches is when you're dealing with change, you're trying to solve an emotional reaction with a logical solution which doesn't work. And I love that because I talk about something similar. Like people, we use logic, forgetting that people aren't creatures of logic, we're creatures of emotion. And to me, this kind of fits, right? How do you feel in the moment? Don't tamp it down, don't ignore it, but pay attention because that could be you saying, oh, I need a, a reset moment right now.
Penny Zenker
And leaders need to drive those reset moments for people, right? If you, you have to Recognize that change is often met, if not always met with emotion first. And if you learn to address that first, then you'll be able to meet people where they're at and then help them into the logical solutions, which might be the next step. But you have to deal with the emotion first. And, you know, that's why we're seeing that 75% of transformations fail. And that's because of resistance. It's not because there's a bad strategy or, you know, there's not enough resources.
Very often those aren't the reason it fails. The reason it fails is because there is resistance. And that is the emotional piece of it that isn't being dealt with.
Avish
Yeah. And that, and so one of the ways to deal with that is through these. Reset. The reset practice. So let's go a little bit into that. Then the, so the first step is to step back. So what does that look like in practice?
You know, it's one thing I'll get to step back. So how does a person step back when they're, when they realize they're in a reset moment?
Penny Zenker
So first is to recognize the moment that here's a moment I need to be more intentional. And, and just in that, right. It, it's having you step back because you're, you're, you're looking for greater awareness. And so the aspect of stepping back isn't a lot of people, you know, they talk about the power and the pause, Right. This isn't a pause because stepping back is still active. It's not a complete silence. It's a stepping back, meaning I'm going to step away from the emotion.
I'm going to see if I can view this more objectively, that I can really look at the facts of what's happening. What's the result that I'm getting? How am I feeling? And there's actually four levels of awareness for a leader. For instance, there's the self awareness that we need to step back in and aware, how is this impacting me? But then there's the situational awareness. How is this impacting the situation?
What, what is happening? There's the, the team aspect of how is this impacting other people? And then at an organizational level, so, and they might be different. So that chance to step back and ask a few questions so that we can get an understanding of what's working and what's not working. And just to point out in there, we don't only step back when something's not working. And even, you know, I, I said something earlier about it being out of alignment. But what about when we get a fantastic result?
We could also take a reset moment and step back and say what led to this fantastic result? How do we multiply this? How do we put more effort and you know, intention behind making sure we understand how we did this once so that we can do it over and over again. So that's also important, right? Or how can we systematize this because it's really working. So those reset moments are also there to step back as often as possible to see what's working and what's not working so that you can decide how to move for things for the best of the situation.
Avish
That is a great reminder because yeah, it is easy just to ignore the positives and be like, oh, let's just keep going. But to step back, then you can multiply and amplify. And you said this is know as a leader but for people maybe who aren't in leadership positions, they can still use some of these four levels just on their own day to day to kind of help themselves reset, correct?
Penny Zenker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean think about yourself, right? You were just talking about your three kids. You know, I have two kids. I think parenting taught me a lot about this, right. Because our kids do something or say something that trigger us. My son was my, my biggest trigger and I, there were times where I had to go through this three step practice which is to step back, get perspective and realign. Step back.
How am I reacting emotionally? Is this helping or hurting the situation? If I'm getting triggered, it's hurting the situation I'm not going to be and show up as the parent that I need to be. So how do I manage this? What am I feeling? Why am I feeling this? Where, what do I need to do? Right? Get perspective, how are they feeling?
What, what's going on with them? And then realign around, well, what's the best thing I can do right now? So as a parent we need timeouts too, right? So a reset practice might be to put your child in timeout 1, 2, 3. Right. Give them their, their warning and then they, they have to take a timeout. Well, we as parents or as leaders, we need timeouts to that timeout is exactly to let us step back away from, let it cool down for a second, get some, some better perspective on what's really happening so that we can, you know, make a better decision and a better choice.
So even though we're pulling out, let's say the step back piece, they're all kind of hand in hand. It's just breaking down those steps. But they work together very often. When we step back, we're already going into step two, which is to get a broader perspective.
Avish
Right. So let's go into that then. Let's go into get perspective. And before we get jump into more tactics, I had a question for you. So from your book, you start out with a story about Jaws, which actually I also tell a very similar story about Jaws, depending on the topic. I'm going in now, I do that because Jaws is arguably my favorite movie of all time. I'm curious, did you have the Jaws story because it sort of fits the story or are you a huge Jaws fan as well?
Penny Zenker
Just because it fits the story? I just wanted to show that. Well, you, you're talking about it from the same perspective. Unexpected things happen and those unexpected things can, you know, I don't know if you want to share the story because people on here may not know what the story is. So.
Avish
Yeah, feel free.
Penny Zenker
It's, you know, so when they were filming the movie Jaws, the machinery that created that was the shark totally disintegrated. And. And so they freaked out. Like, what are we going to do? We don't have the main feature of this movie. We don't have a shark anymore. And. But they found a way around it. Right. It made them get creative.
Oh, my goodness, what do we do? They, you know, they're not going to give up. So they were able to create much more suspense.
And I'm not a huge jaw Jaws fan. Like I said, I don't even know a lot of the details of the movie. I like what happened there made them think about it. And then it was the dun dun, dun dun. And it added so much suspense that it made it scarier and it made it. Right.
Avish
So, yeah, the end product ended up being much better than what was originally planned because.
Penny Zenker
Exactly.
Avish
Because they adapted to the challenge instead of just giving up or pushing through.
Penny Zenker
Exactly. And I believe, and that's what's in the book, is that these reset moments when we recognize them as such. Right. Change can be. And these unexpected events can be a huge catalyst for innovation and that. And that very often we do see those types of results is that people get more creative. When we cut off the way that it was working before.
Now we can't even. We can't. We can't fall back on it.
It's gone now. What are we going to do? And what else? And what else could we look at and what else? That's one of the.
Avish
Yeah, I was going to say you have two questions you can ask, because the one next question would be, how do you get perspective or get a new perspective? So you've got two questions you kind of recommend, one of which you just.
Penny Zenker
Said, yeah, so it can be. It can be as simple as that.
Well, what else? You know, what else could we do? What else could we do? Or how else could we do this? And how else could we do this?
I think it's. It's just in any question that you ask yourself over and over again, we'll just go deeper. You know, it's like Toyota's five whys, right? Why is this happening? And given that, why is that happening? And so forth. The more that you ask a single question, the more depth you get in.
In the results. And we tend to be. And that's our biggest risk today, is that we're not going to be diving too deep into our thinking because AI is doing it for us. So it's so important that we do give ourselves space and ask these questions to help us to take deeper dives in our own thinking. We can use AI to support us, but we need to be thinking deeper as well. We can't just take that first answer. I don't know about you, but how many times have I said that that's pretty basic.
And I tell it to go deeper or give me more, and then it's like, oh, you're right. And then, you know, and then it gives me something so much better. So we. We have to dig deeper for ourselves, but also with the technology that we're working with.
Avish
Yeah. And then go hand in hand. You know, I find that there's a little bit of a tangent, but with AI, but even with questions like, if I'm asking what else, how else, it's oftentimes not that it's giving me a great answer, it's that its answer is triggering the next creative idea for me. Like, it's like, it says this. I'm like, oh, well, that's totally useless. But that just popped this in my head. But I like the idea of digging deeper because I think what a lot of people would do is say, oh, let's ask what else?
Or how else? And they get one answer, the first answer, and then they stop. Because, like, all right, well, I did the exercise.
I got my. What else? It's like, no, it's iteration. It's like you said, the digging deeper.
The digging deeper.
Penny Zenker
Right?
Avish
Now do you find that you get. So let me rephrase this. So when I'm Talking about creativity, I say, you know, you have to be willing to explore ideas that are stupid or impossible or would never work or been tried before and failed for exploration, not implementation. Do you find that that is the same for, like, what else and how else? Like, maybe an idea will come up and you were like, no, we can't do that. And that shuts people down. But opening them up to look, you got to explore that idea just to see where it can lead.
Penny Zenker
Yeah, absolutely right. You have. It is about exploring because like you said, one idea will lead to the next, will need to the next. That's, you know, that's the whole beauty of improv. Right? Is that. Yes. And, and then.
And then somebody comes up with something crazy, and then you build on top of that and, and you can build on top of it or you can move sideways. There's so many different things that you can do.
It's a, it's also a muscle. You know, there's someone in my life that their first reaction is, no, you know, let's do this. Let's think about this. Let's. And always it's first met with a no. And what that does is it shuts everyone down. Nobody else thinks of anything else.
Nobody else wants to say anything else. And it's, it's reactionary. I know that that person doesn't even mean it if that's. If it's just what they've become accustomed to doing. Because right after that, I have become very good at opening people up. And, and it took like a second to open up and be like, oh, yeah. And then.
And then it's the yes. And let's think about different. Different ideas and not be connected. We don't have to do any of them.
Let's just explore. And it's the initial reaction that people have. Maybe it's the fear or this is the way, you know, I want to stay in my comfort zone or the way we've always done things. So opening up, that's the idea of perspective, like you said, is. Is. Is the opening up. That's why.
That's one of the key factors of the reset mindset, is being willing to reinvent. Yeah.
Avish
And I, like, there's another line you talk about in there along those lines about, about the, the key to handling complexity is to embrace simplicity. And when I read that, I said the saying sometime I haven't talked about in a while, but that is to find the simplicity on the other side of complexity.
Penny Zenker
Yeah.
Avish
So something's complex on this side. There's Simplicity. And that simplicity is usually in ignoring it, saying no, sticking with what you know. And then you go through this complexity, and then the other side, you're like, oh, now I'm like, oh, now things are simple again. Because I pushed through that. And I feel like this default mindset of like, just saying no is often because they just see the complexity and shut down, not realizing that.
Oh, a little bit. Explanation. You can kind of reset to a new. Or reset. You can reset to a new level of simplicity, but you have to be willing to be a little uncomfortable and get out of your comfort zone. And then, then it's amazing what can open up. But so many people just don't want to take that first step because it's overwhelming.
And we're in an over, over stimulated, overworked society anyways right now.
Penny Zenker
Right. Well, it comes back to that emotional discussion that we were having. It's an emotional reaction.
No, is overwhelm. It's shut down. It's an emotional reaction. So when you're experiencing that, whether it's your kids, whether it's your friends, your family, your. Your co workers get good at opening people up and understanding it's just an emotional reaction. Same within sales. If it's a rejection, it's.
It's an, you know, it might also be factual. But first address the emotion. Maybe, maybe it's, you know, how do you open people up and learn how to do that? And your simple, you know, cue from improvisation is. Yes. And Right. That. That will open people up.
Avish
Yep. Dig deeper instead of arguing back. Because I think that's what happens is someone says no. And then again, logical mind. Right. We go to logic. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Because your, Your first book was about the tug of war. Right. Between. So, yeah.
Penny Zenker
The thing is, it becomes a struggle for control. Right. That's what a tug of war is, is a struggle for control. And no one wins when you get in the tug of war.
Avish
Yes. I love that.
And so addressing the emotion first, but not via logic, but through helping them get a new perspective and asking questions and digging deeper. So let's say we've asked the questions. What else? How do you have any tips for knowing? Like, is it like knowing when you've got the answer, like you're creative, you've come with a bunch of ideas. Is it just something that you feel emotionally like you feel like, oh, that's like you've done the. What else?
You get a bunch of ideas like, should I keep exploring or should I go with one I've gotten? Is it Just something, you know, like you can kind of feel in the moment. Or is there any kind of logical way of saying, like, oh yeah, you go fight like, like Toyota's five wise, right? Oh, it's a very logical, like, let me do it five times.
Penny Zenker
Right. And, and that's a roundabout rule, right? So the five times means that the more you do it, you're going to get to a point where you can't go any further, that you get there and you can't think of anything else. It's just you're at the root cause. Right. And so that's how you know in that case that you're at the root cause. But it really depends on what your perspective, what the perspective taking is going around.
So as any good consultant, I'd say it depends, right. It depends on the context of what your situation is. But I think when you come to the bottom where you're at the root cause or you're at the base, you've run out of ideas, you could still look to spark it with a different type of question and see if there's anything else that comes up. But it depends, you know, on, on, on what you're looking to do. So if you're, we would need a context to, to see what that is. But I, I think you, you generally know when, when you've exhausted yourself or your ideas. Maybe it's also a time limit.
Sometimes you can actually brainstorm and say, hey, I've done this before. In, in just 60 seconds, you can come up with a fantastic number of ideas.
Avish
Yes. And, and in fact, this is my angle on the Jaws story is about using constraints to our advantage because they had a big constraint, the shark didn't work, but they use that constraint to launch their creativity. Made it better. So, yeah, same thing with the time limit. If I give you two weeks to brainstorm, you noodle around, you know, but if you give you 60 seconds, boom, you like, have to come up with stupid ideas. And by coming up with stupid ideas, you eventually find the good idea. So I love that, like the constraint, right.
Set a time limit.
Penny Zenker
Well, it's Parkinson's law, right. It tells us that we'll use whatever time is allotted. So you probably wouldn't come up with that many more great ideas in two weeks than you would in two minutes.
Avish
Yeah. Because you'd essentially do one minute brainstorming. You would just do it two weeks from now.
Penny Zenker
Exactly.
Avish
I'm not speaking for personal experience, of course, not my entire collegiate career, but that's a whole other story. All right, so we've done one step, one and two.
We've asked what else. We have an idea. All right, we step back, we've, we've gotten perspective. Then the third step is to realign.
And so this guy. I think that, I believe this comes back to what you said near the beginning, which is it's not enough to just notice you're in a reset moment, you actually have to do something with it. So is that kind of.
Penny Zenker
Yeah, I mean, how many times are we aware that we need to lose weight and that we eat too much sugar? Or how many times are we aware that we don't go to the gym as much as we want to and to get the results, we have a lot of awareness. I'm aware that I'm distracted and that the notifications on my phone distract me. Well, duh. If you don't do anything about it, that awareness is useless. Right?
Avish
Yeah.
Penny Zenker
So, you know, we, and I think we get caught up in learned helplessness and so we allow ourselves to be distracted and to, to go with the first solution that's, that's there and things like that. So we, you know, to, to take that action and to realign, we have to be intentional, give ourselves. Like you said, maybe there's a constraint, a time limit that gets us into action. Maybe it's the goal that we're working towards and we're setting what that first step is so that we can take that first step and break it down as opposed to looking at that massive goal. And most importantly is making sure that we are aligned with what that goal is. Because very often we're focusing on the wrong things and it's because we're not understanding and aligning around what the real problem is or what the real goal is that we're looking to achieve.
Avish
So if I'm in the realign stage, then I'm going to pay attention to my goal, take my answers from like the what else and whatnot take, and then come up with basically a new strategy or new plan, but then also make sure I'm taking action towards that plan. Is that about right?
Penny Zenker
Yeah. You, you'd be creating an action plan in the realign. Right. But it's, it's what are the next steps that, that best take me forward towards my goal.
Avish
Okay. And I'm guessing then the, the, the size of the reset moment matters because if you go through this three step process, like the amount of time you spend on this three step process, I'm assuming is scalable. Right. If it's Just like the alarm clock moment. I'm assuming you're not going to spend 15 minutes going through the reset practice, but if it's, you know, a complete organizational shift, because, oh, new market, we're opening a new plant that might be more than a three minute process. Is that like you can kind of scale this depending on the situation?
Penny Zenker
Yeah, absolutely. And again, it's a, it's a meta model. Right. It's a way of thinking. And so let's come back to your world. Right. So yes, end is a reset practice.
I mentioned that in the beginning. I got so excited that, you know, I talked about it early on. Yes. And is a reset practice, you're giving people a cue language to use that will take them through those things to step back, get perspective and realign. So somebody just said something, let's say that you don't agree with or not fully and you want to take it in a different direction, then you're using that reset moment. You're recognizing in the moment this isn't going in the direction that you want. So you say yes.
And so, yes, I like what you said about X and let's build on that.
Avish
Yep.
Penny Zenker
And so now you've opened up perspective because you didn't shut people down, you didn't say no. So you've, you've helped everybody to, you stepped back in a way. Right. To look at things in a way and communicate it in a way that's going to open people up. So now let's build off of it and then you can get perspective as a group and then your realign is, you know, we, we take sometimes these, these steps too literal.
Do you know what I mean? Like sometimes, like you said, there are different frameworks that you use for each step and that might happen over a period of two weeks or two months. Right. If I'm going to step back, I might do a SWOT analysis and take a look at the strengths and weaknesses and the opportunities and threats that might give me an objective perspective. And then I could say, okay, let's get perspective on the market. What are the five things that are changing in the marketplace and how do we show up today, you know, and combining then with your strengths and weaknesses. And then, okay, now how are we going to approach the market given this is our goal, this is where we are, our opportunities and threats and these are the, the, the opportunities that we have available to us.
But sometimes it's just that reset practice, which is just the yes, end is that you don't have to overthink it you just use that cue and that language or the how else and what else in your conversation with someone to open up perspective. Sometimes just that question. Because think about it. A single question is a reset practice because you, to answer something, you have to think about it just for a second. You have to actively think about, okay, what is this person asking you? And it's just going to come out with some dribble. You're going to make it relatable to the question that's being asked.
So now you can also different ways to answer that question. And, and it may happen in a split second in your head, but it does make you go through these processes, you know, to, to think things through just a little bit more, to dig a little deeper, to guide it in a specific direction.
Avish
And then I would think that like a lot of practices, that the more you consciously do it, the more unconscious it becomes. Then you start when something happens, you sort of automatically, without having to consciously remind yourself, do it just because. Not that it ever happens. Right. I talk about yes, answer yes, but I'm constantly catching myself saying yes, but. But my default is a little bit more of a yes. And just after having years of done it.
So it gets easier over time.
Penny Zenker
Yeah, you're conditioning yourself, right. This is neuroplasticity. You're conditioning yourself. The more you use it, the more you're going to use it. So you're rewiring your brain if you're, if your natural thing is to say no or yes, but it's going to take some time. You've spent years speaking in that way and refuting something in the same way. So to change your thought process and the way that you think it takes time.
But yes, the more that you repeat it, the more that that just becomes your default in how you think about things. And I can't help it. Like, that's the way I approach most things because that's been conditioned over the years.
Avish
Yeah. And that is sort of like the simplicity, right? Like now it's just simple.
Now you just.
Penny Zenker
Exactly, exactly. And they are simple steps. But also we need to remember that if we're not conscious and paying attention, we can have really good habits and practices that get overwritten by poor habits and practices that you're seeing and experiencing around you. So simple example of how that can happen. So I'm an English speaker by I born in the United States, so I speak English here. I moved to Zurich, Switzerland and I was there for 16 years. And there are some common mistakes that people make when they're not native English speakers.
So they might say peoples, for instance. Right, right. Instead of people so easy to make, difficult to remember all the nuances of the language. And I heard myself once say peoples.
I was like, what? And the reason I said it is because it's what I was hearing around me all the time. And unconsciously I repeated something that I knew was wrong.
Avish
Yeah. And that's where organizational and even individual culture becomes so important. I think one thing while you talk and where we groups on is how do you kind of build that culture? Because even if one person's got it, if everyone around them doesn't, it makes it that much harder to develop that habit.
Penny Zenker
That's right. The language and the behaviors are going to filter. Energy is contagious. So that energy and that way of being is contagious. It will affect everyone and anyone that's around. And if we're not consciously driving it in one direction, then we're in autopilot and we will be driven.
Avish
Yeah, absolutely. And we're gonna finish up here in a little bit. I want to ask you about some application, but first, you know, we've talked a lot about the reset mindset. And you know, the big mindset thing that I've heard over the years that changed my life back in the day was learning about the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset. And in your book early on, you basically talk about, like, the reset mindset is not the growth mindset, but it's like it's almost the evolution of the. The growth mindset.
Could you explain. And also maybe people don't know just what is the fixed versus growth as well.
Penny Zenker
Sure, sure, sure. Well, that is, there's a table in. Yeah. In the. Early on in the first chapter that talks about the comparison. So in 2006, Carol Dweck introduced her book Mindset the New Psychology of Success, showing us how important mindset is in anything and everything that we do. And it was groundbreaking work that really brought it in the forefront of students because there were a lot of studies done in different student environments, but also in the workplace.
Various studies have been done that show that when people understand the difference between these two mindsets and be more conscious to live in a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset, that they're going to be more productive, they're going to be happier, they're going to be more collaborative all around, profits are going to grow in the organization. And the fixed mindset is kind of a mindset, which is do what you've Always done. If it's not broken, don't fix it. That we don't really have control over the things around us.
So just, you know, keep, keep doing. And the growth mindset is what we can learn and grow over time. And it's, it's really based on effort and persistence and that aspect of learning. And we can also. Even though you can flip back and forth as well, it's not a right and wrong, it's just recognizing where you are because we can. Also companies like Nokia that were in the top of their game in the mobile market, they got into a protectionism mode. So they were in a growth mindset, really developing that market, but then they slipped into a fixed mindset where they, they didn't want to, you know, lose their market share.
And that protectionism put them into kind of a fixed mindset. And then the market that they created kind of passed them by, which is really sad. So it can happen if we're not paying attention and we're not really aware. And so that's where the reset mindset is, the next generation of the growth mindset. So it's the ultimate. Yes. And that we're talking about.
So not negating the growth mindset and moving people in that direction is absolutely key. But in 2006, we didn't have the level of change that we have today. We could afford to learn over time, but today it can't be about effort and persistence because that's what's burning people out. We need to be more adaptable and accelerate our learning so that we can adapt and adjust much more quickly in real time, as much as possible. And so it's just the underlying factors that have changed because the market has changed. So in essence, we're just building on top of the growth mindset. And it's the next generation that keeps us learning and growing faster.
And that's the element of the dynamic reassessment is constantly checking in. And then if we get stuck in a fixed mindset, it's only for a short time because we catch ourselves.
Avish
Whoa. Yeah.
Penny Zenker
You know?
Avish
Yeah, I love that. How is kind of the progression there is great. So we're kind of coming close to the end here. And I just want to give. So for people listening, obviously that you get your book is the first step, but the next step after that. If someone wants to get started with a reset defense, developing a reset practice, how would you recommend. And I would say in two areas.
One is if they are a leader and two is more just like an individual, like what are the best kind of first steps towards getting started, developing a reset mindset and starting a reset practice.
Penny Zenker
Sure. Now, I would say most people, they're already doing some reset practices in some shape or form. So the first thing would be to recognize where you're already doing it and make the most of it. You know, amplify it so that it's doing more for you. So where are you? Maybe you have a song that you use that helps you get in a good mood, or you have a morning routine. How could you take that morning routine and also do it a little bit at lunch and create a lunch routine so that you can change the energy for the second half of the day is really notice what's working and what's not working in bringing out the best of yourself.
And I call it being. The first step is becoming a professional noticer. Make it your job to notice when somebody's upset, when you are uncomfortable or feeling annoyed or frustrated or happy. And what is it that's generating those feelings? Or where are your expectations not being met? Just notice. And then notice what you do with it.
That's the first step.
Avish
Love it. And it's so simple. Anyone can do it. You're not going on like you just pay attention and notice and love it. All right, we're gonna finish up. I got one more question for you before I get to that. I want to just give you a chance, you know, for people who want to get your book, want to learn more about you, or maybe they have an organization.
They're like, oh, we want to bring the reset mindset to my people or my conference. What are the best ways to people to connect with you and learn more about you?
Penny Zenker
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it.
So they can go to pennyskeynote.com so p e n n y s keynote.com and there they can find access to my podcast, time to Reset. I also have a newsletter on Substack. There'll be links there, and they can watch videos, connect with me on YouTube and LinkedIn and all those places. But the website's probably the best place to go.
Avish
Perfect. So pennieskeynote.com go to that connect, get the book, watch the videos.
You've got a TEDx talk as well. And a lot of great. I was on your website. You got a lot of clips from some stuff, so a lot of great info. Get on the email list. Fantastic. All right, I gotta finish up with one kind of final quick question.
And this is how I try to end all these episodes is so I talk about this idea of saying yes and instead of yes, but. And one of the reasons I do that, as I honestly believe the world would be a better place if everyone just started with the default mindset of yes. And so for you, what is one small thing, which if you believe everyone just started doing a small thing, it would make the world a better place, what would that one small thing be?
Penny Zenker
Well, I'll try to not say the obvious of what I've already said.
Avish
Usually, what often happens.
Penny Zenker
Well, it's. It's the reset moment is remember to take a reset moment when and where you need it. That's it. But let's make it even more simple. Like, I'm going to breath school right now. So learning the different ways to use your breath to. To take that reset moment. And I.
I didn't know. There's, like, a lot to it. Like, if you hold your breath when it's in. That puts you into one state. If you let all the air out and you hold it in that state, that generates something else in your body. So, you know, maybe it's just, you know, just if you. The. The way to stimulate the vagus nerve, I'm.
I'm learning, which is the. Basically that they call it the chill button for the body that connects your body and your brain is to breathe out longer than you breathe in, like, a sigh. So if we just took a reset moment at the. Maybe the top of every hour to take a little sigh when you go to the bathroom or you take a drink, that could make all the difference in just relieving the stress that we have in our body.
And then we would approach the day in a completely different way. It's helping for me.
Avish
I love it. That is a perfect answer. And it's totally fine that it aligns with everything else we've talked about. It's nothing wrong with that. All right, well, that's fantastic. Great information. So check out Penny's website.
Get her book, read her stuff, Reach out to her. Penny, thank you very much for being on. This was fantastic, and I look forward to chatting with you again soon.
Penny Zenker
Awesome. Thank you so much.