Say “Yes, And” to Workplace Conflict (and Collaboration) with David Dye

In this episode of "Yes, And with Avish Parashar," I chat with David Dye, President of Let's Grow Leaders and co-author of "Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict." David shares his insights on how to transform workplace conflict into constructive conversations. We explore key phrases that can help you navigate difficult discussions, the importance of psychological safety, and how to foster a culture of innovation within teams.

Key takeaways include:

• The role of conflict in fostering innovation

• Practical phrases for handling workplace disagreements

• The importance of clarity and connection in conversations

• Insights on psychological safety and creative abrasion

Links:

David’s Website: LetsGrowLeaders.com 

Unedited Transcript

Hello, David, and welcome to the podcast.

It's my pleasure to be with you, Avish. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. So let's just jump right in.

You know, I you and I have known each other for a number of years, so I know all about you. But for the, people who are listening and unfamiliar with you and your work, could you just give us a quick, like, 32nd, 1 minute sort of bio resume of kind of you and what you do?

Yeah. Definitely. All about practical tools for human centered leaders. So helping leaders get transformational breakthrough results and doing it in a way that creates a climate where people grow, thrive, and and enjoy and love their work. So that's ultimately what our our business and company are all about.

Okay. And just for context, you said what our business is about. So, you've got a a unique business structure. Not unique, but you've got a different type business structure that, some people would envy and some people would be horrified by. So why don't you, just just just so people know when

you say our what you're talking about. Oh, sure. Yeah. When I say our, so, I'm the president of Let's Grow Leaders. And, so my wife and partner in life and business and authorship of books and so forth, Karen Hurt, is the CEO. And so together, we run the company. It's a global leadership development, firm.

And so when I say our, I'm typically referring to all of us, but in particular, Karen.

Gotcha. Absolutely. Makes sense. So you are the president and she is the boss. Understood.

Hey. Division of labor. Division of labor.

And, you know, so you mentioned also in your partner in authorship, and you guys together have written 3 books. Correct?

That's correct. Yes. Couple independence. Well, now there's a 4th one if you count the children's book. We wrote a fantasy, novel with our son, called Glowstone Peak that is, really about leadership for for kids.

Alright. Well, we're gonna circle back to that. You know, anything fantasy novel related, we have to talk about. But just real quick, because we are gonna talk about your we're gonna kinda focus this conversation on your 3rd most recent book. But just, again, for context, I'm sure some of it'll come up. Could you just tell us briefly about the other two books?

Yeah. For sure.

So the first that we wrote together is called winning well, a manager's guide to getting results without losing your soul. So it's a lot of those foundational management leadership fundamentals, that, are are really practical skills a lot of people don't learn. And so that focus filled with those. Then the next one is courageous cultures. How to build teams of micro innovators, problem solvers, and customer advocates. And that's really about building an organizational culture where everybody is coming to work every day and able to speak up, solve problems, share their ideas, and creating a kind of mass innovation. We call them micro innovations that every team and every organization needs if they're gonna survive and thrive.

And so those are the the 2 predecessors. And now, our latest that, that I think we're talking about today, powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict. And this one is really if the first one is written for leaders and managers and the second one was written for executives, this third one is written for anybody who works with another human being.

So gotcha. So almost everyone other than, you know, those of us who prefer to be recluses and have solo businesses and not interact with people except when we absolutely have to. But even then, basically, what I read in the book, it's useful even for someone like me.

You know, I I when I was first self employed of each, I always said I had a jerk for a boss.

So It's it's it's true. And you actually have stuff in here about talking to yourself. A lot of it, and I like that. A lot of it is, it's not just but I'm jumping ahead. Because, I wanna start with some foundational stuff, because through this, I do see a lot of kind of connections. Not not not overlap per se, because you and I and and Karen, we kinda talk about different things. But there's a lot of kinda connections between the essay and the stuff I've seen there.

But before we jump into some of that, you know, the idea here, when you see a title like powerful phrases for workplace conflict, you sort of assume, alright. This book is gonna show me how to avoid conflict. But reading it and talking to you, that's actually not real. I mean, obviously, we don't want, like, unnecessary conflict. But one of the premises that you have is that workplace conflict is necessary, and this is not about avoiding it, but how do you kind of deal with it and almost initiate it when needed?

Yeah. Exactly. You know, conflict's unavoidable. I mean, if we have people who care and we have differences of opinion, we should have conflict. We're going to have conflict. Nobody needs that that way you were saying really, like that destructive conflict. I think when a lot of us think about conflict automatically, it kind of get tense and it gets to, oh, it's that destructive conflict that we're talking about.

But when we talk about really cool conflict and the yes, the end of everything, right, that's where you get this different ideas coming together, and you get something better that's a better result than if I was doing it by myself now that I'm doing it with 2 or 3 or 4 or 500 other people.

Yeah. And it's funny.

I was just doing a, I did a keynote yesterday, and, you know, I I talked about this idea. I I was talking obviously about yes and yes but, and how about kind of resisting change and putting off things and how that you know, the the famous cliched phrase about how, a hero dies one death, a coward dies a 1,000. And I was talking about in the context of, hey, there's this change. I'm gonna resist it. But it it applies to a conflict almost the exact same way. It's like there's a situation that's bothering you. Someone said something or someone has behavior.

And for so many people myself, include because I am definitely a conflict avoider in my life, we're just gonna put it off. Maybe it'll fix itself or it's not worth it. If I go talk to him, it's gonna make it much worse. So I assume that's one of the reasons you sort of developed this, but you were seeing this sort of behavior a lot. Whereas your position is taking action to initiate that discussion in the long run is gonna be much more positive.

Can be. It can be. Absolutely. And the can be the the qualitative can be is we gotta have the tools for it. So why do we why do so many of us naturally kinda steer clear of conflict? And I definitely have, been that person as well, Avish. So you're not alone there. Right? There's so many of us for whom that's true.

And then there's the people who, like and their way of avoiding it is I'm just gonna overpower it and, you know, with anger or some of those negative things that just like, if I can keep people away from having to have the real things that are meaningful and and potentially uncomfortable, Either way, we're not solving any problems. And so why do we do that? Well, like you said, we fear damaging relationships.

We're social creatures. We wanna be in relationship with people. So, you know, we need the tools to be able to do that in a way that builds those relationships and helps us actually solve and resolve those problems and come up with better solutions. And if we can do that, our quality of life improves, the quality of our work improves, our careers progress, whatever it is that we're about, it's better if we get the skill to do it.

Yeah. And it I I have this, throw this metaphor at you that I sometimes use is I kind of equate it to a rubber band. Like, we're all sort of like rubber bands. And what happens is it it stretches to a point and then comes back when we don't deal with it. It stretches to a point then till, eventually, it stretches so far that it snaps. And I think one of the things these tools are so you avoid overstretching your rubber band. It's, like, instead of avoiding it, avoiding it till it stretches so far, you can't avoid it. Like, okay.

How do we deal with it in a productive positive manner? Yeah. And there's a stat in here in your book, that you said in the book this might be shocking, which and it was. And I'd like you to talk about it and maybe what the source is because I was too lazy to click on the footnote, and maybe you can share it for real. But you literally said in there that and you did a survey of, like, 5,000 people around the world, you and your company. And you found that 70% of, let me see if I'll go 70% of your respondents said they're experiencing more conflict at work than

The same or more as in the last couple of years. So, yeah, we the world, the global is a world workplace conflict and collaboration survey. So 5,000 people, 46 countries around the world, all 50 US states. And so, yeah, we started by asking them, what is the extent what kind of the changes in the amount of conflict are you experiencing? And so, yeah, 70% of respondents around the world, it was pretty consistent from country to country, said they are experiencing the same or more amount of conflict as they did over the pre previous couple of years, which that's interesting. Like, okay. So if it feels sometimes if you're in the workplace, you're like, wow.

There's more conflict. It feels that way. Well, you're feeling something that a lot of other people are feeling. But what I found most fascinating was in the 30% who said they're experiencing less. Like, okay. Let's dive in there. Because then the next question we said, well, why?

Why are you experiencing more? Why are you experiencing less? And the people who said they're experiencing less, half of them said it's basically because they have escaped a negative situation. Either they left a toxic conflict from workplace or maybe now they're working from home, and now they're just not interacting with people as much, which that's great for them. Maybe they're having a more peaceful existence. But what is lost in all of that is all of the positive outcomes, and and things that we could get if we were having positive, good, healthy interactions with people. So, you know, even in that 30% that are having less conflict, half of that isn't necessarily positive.

That's it is it is really amazing, you know, doing the work that we do. How, like, mind numbingly obvious it is. You ask anyone, like, is your work going to be better? Is your workforce gonna be better if people interact more positively, are more supportive, less toxic, whatever? I would guess almost universally, a 100% of people would say yes. And yet when it comes to actually engaging in their behavior that's gonna lead to that I mean, maybe 70% or whatever it is, it's like you and probably more than 70% because those 30% who are doing better, a lot of them is because they're no longer in those situations. Like, it's just one and this is, I think, one of the reasons why people like you and I will have work for a long time because of stuff that just because something is obvious when you're looking at it from 30,000 feet when you're in the weeds.

And I think that's what's cool about this book is it kinda I would say the first third or so is sort of strategic mindset overview, but then you get very tactical. It's not just like, alright.

Now go engage. It's like, alright.

And I think I counted, like, 25 different chapters, each of which is a different scenario. Like, if you have a toxic boss or or how do you if someone you felt you're not getting enough credit from your boss or if you have a coworker who's taking advantage of you. So let's talk a little bit about that, about the the foundation strategy. Unless you wanted something to add to that. I

Well, yeah, I just wanted to call out what you're saying there, because I think it's so so true that the things that we want, we don't always take action on. And it's there's a difference between, oh, that would be nice, and I really want and I'm willing to do the thing that's gonna get me there. You know, I think about, you know, just a practical easy example. You see somebody who's, like, pretty fit and buff, and and so we're both guys, and we're like, okay. There's somebody who's fit and buff. I'm like, god. I'd love to look like that. Well, if I really wanna look like that, what I'm saying is I wanna put in the hard work at the gym and with the broccoli chicken rice and protein shakes or whatever it is that, and just for the record for those who might be listening and not watching this, I am not super buff.

I have pretty good shape relatively speaking, but, no, I'm not

say for the benefit of those who are listening and not watching, I am super buff if you are listening and not watching.

I know I'm supposed to yes and that, Avish, but, so yeah. At any rate, yeah. Totally. So but you know what I'm saying. Right? It's that, like, are we it's nice. That's a nice thing, but do I really want what that takes?

And that's why we provide these practical tools is because so often we don't see the path to get there. And so it's really our heart is to provide you, the listener, with the tools to help you have those conversations. That's what it really what it's all about.

Yeah. One of my favorite sayings along those lines is if you wanna see what a person truly values, look at how they spend their time and how they spend their money. And I think it's you know, we can use that as individuals and as an organization.

Like, yeah, I'm I'm, you know, I'm joking about my fitness. Like, obviously, it's been a goal of mine for 40 years. And, it's but, yeah, if I look at how I you know, where do I spend my time and my energy and my money, it's not necessarily on those things. Right? It's it's much easier to to not do. And that's I think that's why, you know, your second book was about courage. And in this book, you touch upon that.

And so we're talking about kind of the mindset, the foundational piece to start. Like, there is a bit of of courage, you know, I would call it, like, saying yes and to stepping out your comfort zone a comfort zone a little bit. So what do you see when you're working with people in terms of, like, the initial hurdle to actually apply some of these techniques? Because even though you lay out the what they can do, there's gotta be some resistance still.

Yeah. For sure.

And I I think that the the first conversations why and and as you were saying, the first third of the book or the first two sections are really about that foundation. And the first conversation, the first phrases aren't with another human being.

They're with yourself. And it's that conversation as you're mentioning earlier that that you have with yourself about why does what I have to say matter, and what's at stake if I stay silent? And in getting in touch with your own values and what's actually at stake and what you're trying to achieve, so much of this is reframing. You know? When we think about let's take, if you're a manager or a leader, or you don't have to be. Let's say you're a team member and you got another team member who's slacking, and you're like, I need to have an accountability conversation with that person. Well, if you're coming at it from the mindset of I need to go beat that person up in order to make them perform, well, of course, that's gonna be negative.

And who wants to do that? And, of course, that's gonna damage your relationship. But if you come at it with the mindset of service, of you know what? Never once have I brought somebody a cup of coffee. Like, hey. Here's a cup of coffee for you. And not once have I ever been nervous about that.

I I've never worried about what are they gonna think of me, or is our relationship gonna be okay, whatever. Because I'm bringing them something that I know is helpful and useful for them. Now maybe they hate coffee, and they're like, oh, no. I'm good, man. Thanks. It's their choice if they drink it or not. But in me approaching it, that's a mindset shift is recognizing the value of whatever I have to say and contribute and coming to it from that perspective of I really care about our relationship. I really care about the work we're doing here.

I really care about, whatever is at stake if I don't say something. And so getting in touch with that and having that conversation with ourself is kind of the first step to starting to take action and have some of these conversations.

I like that. I didn't really thought about in the context of thinking of that kinda broaching that conversation with the perspective of I'm offering you something. I'm helping. I'm not. Because it does it is easy to think of it as criticism. Like, I'm gonna come and tell you what you're doing wrong and how you need to fix it. But if we think about it more, it's like, oh, I'm here offering you something because I wanna help this.

I could see that really lowering that resistance. You know? I give not no magic wands here. Nothing's gonna suddenly make you super excited about it, but just lowering that

And there's there's research that goes into this too. So, like, if you as you're starting one of these conversations, and you'll see in our phrases, right, there there are so many ways that we suggest to do this. But if you can open a potentially difficult or challenging conversation with your intent, and the 2 research based things that that make conversations more likely to be productive is, 1, if I can start with my intent for that conversation. So, like, if you and I were having a a conversation and, you know, and you had not called me back and followed up on a commitment you made, I was like, you know, hey, Veesh, my intent for this conversation is I really wanna make sure that we're keeping our mutual commitments to each other and that we're, you know, eliminating any friction that's gonna keep this project from getting done. When I start with that intent, that gives you a chance to enroll in that conversation with me and say, yeah. I want those things too. Alright. Let's talk about it.

As opposed to my intent is to make you feel bad about yourself or to beat you up or any of those kinds of things. My intent is to help in some fashion.

So what is that specifically? So if we can start with our intent, that's always gonna provide, in a research based way or HBR articles, all the rest of it, but the the research based way of opening the door to a more meaningful conversation.

And it's so interesting you said because I'm I'm literally right now in the middle of right now in the middle, it's been, like, a month because I'm not quite sure how to phrase it. But I'm working on an article, or blog post on Hanlon's razor, which is this saying that, never never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence. Love that. That's so I love that because it's, like, so many times we assume someone's doing something to hurt us when it's like, oh, no. They just had no idea. And what I like about this approach of starting with intent is it takes that completely away. Because when you start with intent like, Hamlin's razor happens because we have no idea why they did what they did. So we assume it's because they're jerks, so they're mean.

And when you start with intent, intent, it takes away all the ambiguity, which goes into one of the, you know, 4 dimensions, that you talk about. So let's let's this is a nice kinda segue into that. So, again, kind of the in the when you before you get into specific phrases, you lay out 4 different sort of dimensions of, I I forget the exact phrase of of good commit.

Yeah. Four dimensions four dimensions of collaboration. And what these are, if you think about these as there's 2 levels to look at them. 1 is foundational. If I can invest in these 4 dimensions of collaboration in our relationships, the more I invest in these, the less destructive and dumb conflict I'm gonna have. And those are the things we wanna avoid. And the more meaningful and constructive conflict or another word for constructive conflict is collaboration.

The more collaboration we're gonna have. And so these four dimensions are connection. Do we know one another as human beings? Clarity. Do we have a shared understanding of what success looks like? Curiosity. Are we genuinely open to other perspectives and what's possible?

And then commitment, which is, do we have a shared agreement moving forward? And so those 4, and we can talk about how you get into them and all that, but those 4, if we're doing that before there's any kind of conflict, the conflicts we do have will be less severe, less destructive, more collaborative. But then there's another way to engage in those 4 dimensions, and that's when we're in the middle of an actual conflict conversation, we can take a look and say, okay. Which of those 4 is hurting here? Which of those 4 is, if we're having a conflict, there is probably one of those or maybe all 4 of them, but some at least one of them that is suffering in some way. And so that's a place to focus our conversation and our phrases and some of the things that we wanna explore. So, like, for example, if if we have a a conflict, then it's like, gosh.

I think there might be a misunderstanding here. We're working from 2 completely different playbooks, 2 different scripts. I thought our boss asked for this. You thought they asked for that. Alright. That's clearly a clarity issue. So how can we have some conversation to resolve that?

So that's an example of how we might use those dimensions to diagnose the conflict when we're in the middle of it and then work our way through it.

Do you feel like they're all equally weighted, or do you feel like there's one you should start with and then kind of explore the others? Or

It it's this depends on context. And so so much of our work that we do is with leaders and managers. So if I was coaching a leader if I were coaching a a leader or manager who is very new to their role, I might start by advising them to start connecting. You know, meet the human beings on your team, get to know them, and so forth. Help them get to know you. Then I'd say move to clarity. Like, start establishing what does success look like for our team.

As you talk to people, what is that shared vision of what's possible that we collectively think we can do and what we're capable of? And then, you know, as you get curious and committed and so forth, and then you work your way through it, Commitment is generally the last step in of this 4. Not always, but it's generally the 4th one in the process. But it's that process of how are we holding ourselves accountable? How are we making those agreements to move forward? And, like, you're getting really practical. You know, I have a great conversate.

Before we were on air, we're like, oh, let's talk about this, potential game activity that you wanted to create for your business and so forth. Well, that's a nice intent. But if we're really committed to that, we would schedule a time on the calendar and say, alright. Let's move that from just a nice idea to let's schedule the finish on that, put it on the calendar. Like, there's some phrases you can use to make those kinds of agreements. So that's how I would approach it. Again, context is is really important.

Right. Obviously, every situation is gonna be but, you know, for someone who's kinda new to this, like, they wanna start using it. So I like kind of that that approach connection. Especially for new people, connection's a good place to sort of start.

And you kinda quickly figure out. It's pretty it should be pretty obvious if you have these in mind. You should build it pretty quickly if you've got a conflict figured out which one is sort of deficient or one Yeah.

And if you don't know, there are some questions you can ask to to quickly find that out. And so, like, even, when we're talking about connection, let's say that you and I are in different departments, and we don't really have to work together much, but all of a sudden, we got thrown together. Something's not operating correctly.

I don't know you. You don't know me. We're so we're not really connected. A way to invest in that connection right at right away when we're having the conflict conversation is back to our intent. Hey. You know what? My intent for this conversation is I really care about you having a good experience here, our team getting what they need. Hey. Can we talk about this?

My intent is to make sure this works out smoothly for both of us, and we both get what we need out of the relationship here. And both come out looking good.

How's that sound for you? And as soon as I do that, that's my intent, and I'm inviting your intent. Boom. We've created some connection there on a shared purpose for that conversation.

Yeah. It's well, I gotta keep her saying said thing like about how great it is. So let's you probably never get tired of that, but, let's let's move forward on these. So you got 4 dimensions, and then you have a section in the book you call goat phrases, which for those who don't know goat is an acronym for greatest of all time. Although, I don't know if there's a way for you. We're around the same age. When I was growing up, when I was in high school and college, like, being the goat was a negative.

Like, the goat was, like, short for the scapegoat. And then all of a sudden, it was like, oh, the goat. We're like, wait. That's a good thing now? So

Well, there is also, depending

on where you went to school, so it was this will tell you a little bit.

I grew up in Colorado, and, and some of the the more, suburban or rural schools, the goats were talking about, like, goat herders or goat farmers. And so, yeah, it was also a negative in that context. Didn't didn't get to be a a a positive until a little bit later, you know, coming out of the sports world and so forth. But we as as we were putting these together and identifying what are the the phrases that we just feel are transferable. You can use them in almost any situation. They're gonna work, in about a 100% of the time. And, gosh, these are these are the best phrases.

And as we're kicking around, what do we wanna call these? And our son, our teenager, who, just now is enrolled in in college, but he was a a junior at the time when we were writing the book. And, everything at that point, you know how kids are, he's like, that's goated, man.

That's the goat. Everything was goat this, goat that.

I said, okay. Well, attribute to Sebastian, we're these are gonna be the goat phrases, and so now we have actual goats. So illustrated goats in the book. We have giant goat cutouts that go on stage with us at time from time. That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So for those of you listening, in addition to the book, you know, from the beginning, but David and Karen also speak and trade in keynote. So if you wanna, if you wanna have a keynote, we have, you know, cut out goats on stage. You know? So if you if you have a goat theme for your conference, unequivocally, the the you gotta call David. But even if you don't, he would do a great job for you. And I gotta kinda side note, I was very jealous because you're talking about goat phrases.

One of the blurbs for your book, is from Seth Godin who says this book is worth it for the goat phrases alone. And Seth is, like, you know, mega best selling author, mega speaker, one of my favorite sort of thought leaders and content experts. And you got him on your book saying that, like, this one section alone is is worth the book. So, that's that's pretty high praise.

Yeah. We were pretty honored, and and pretty, thankful when he said that. I thought that was pretty cool. So we're grateful for the endorsement in general, but calling out those specifically, I thought, pretty awesome.

And I believe it's true. I mean, if I had to take you know, there's 3 there's over 300 phrases in this book. But if I had to only, like, memorize 12, those would be the 12.

So let's talk about them a little bit. We're not gonna go through all 12. 1, because it would take too long, and 2, because the book is a great read. So if you want all 12, you should definitely, you know, pick up a copy of the book and check it out. So I'm thinking maybe we'll just talk a little bit about let's kinda touch upon a a goat phrase for each because you have 3 for each of the 4 dimensions. Mhmm. And so I kinda picked my favorite, of each group.

So for connection, I just love the the tell me more. And, I talk about this a little bit with yes, and was like, yeah. But let me tell you what I think. It's like, no. Yes, and tell me more, and I love this. And, let me know your thoughts if this is what you're thinking. Is even say tell like, say say tell me more when I'm curious, obviously. Like, oh, you said something interesting, tell me more.

That's the easy one. What I would think the more powerful one is when you say something I disagree with, instead of me jumping in with, yeah, but let me tell you what's wrong.

It's like, well, alright. Let me tell me more before I start responding.

You know, Avish, everyone always wants to know, okay. Wait a minute. You are married and you write books together and you run a business together and so forth and you're, like, writing about workplace conflict, like, how does this work in your life? Do you use these phrases? And I will tell you that I have, specifically, since we wrote the book, been working myself on how I use these phrases. And tell me more it's funny that you chose that one. Of a couple of these goats, tell me more is one of the 2 or 3 that I have really tried to invest some time in, and you're exactly right.

That when I feel myself start to tense up at what somebody is saying because I think they've misjudged me. I don't like the way whatever it is. If I can say, okay. I acknowledge those feelings. And as they finish saying whatever they're saying, take a breath, and then say, can you tell me more? It helps them. Why is this the connection?

Greatest of all time powerful phrase goat phrase. It's connection phrase because it's communicating. I genuinely want to hear what you're saying.

Mhmm.

As opposed to getting defensive, all the other things. And I have my perspective, and I have all my emotion. I gotta deal with all that. But if I can start with tell me more, then I'm, k, I'm bringing them in, and and it's a heart thing.

I really wanna hear where you're coming from. And when I say tell me more, the other thing that happens is a lot of times, you get beneath whatever the surface issue was. Just automatically as people and so I love to tell me more until there's nothing left to tell. Okay. Now I can start taking the next step and get into some of the other goats, but it's a it's a it's powerful for that reason.

Yeah. And having that, sort of discipline to not let the emotion I wanna talk about it, but but I have a side question. Since your wife coauthored this book with you, she knows you're using a goat phrase when you're using it. Does that ever make her, like, kinda roll her eyes and be like, hey. You're like or is she, like, appreciate it? Like, okay. Like, really trying to like, it's, like, sort of like the magic trick.

Does the fact that she knows you're using a technique make it less effective, more effective, or neutral?

I am gonna go out on a limb here because that is a question we have not discussed. And now that you've asked that, I'm like, I gotta I gotta ask Karen that question. Here's what I would say. I don't even know that she sees it when it happens because we're in the middle of a conversation. And so she's she and and this can be anything at work. She has an idea. And, oh, okay.

Tell me more about that. If I can go there first as opposed to I'm an operations guy, so I'm immediately the one that wants to say, here's the ten reasons that won't work and what we need to solve, blah blah blah blah. But if I can start, hey. Tell me more. She's so ready to share the rest of that idea. I don't even know that it registers that I'm goading, you know, and and do that.

That might be why this was the one, like, of my favorite phrases kinda like you said as for yours because it is so simple and conversational. It's not like a corporate buzz phrase or, like, a technique. It's just tell me more. Like, it's, so it is very, very it's a real natural way to flow into it.

And and here's the only thing I can say I'm gonna say that, Avish, from my perspective is when she uses a phrase, I am grateful for it because it's connected, and I wanna get my opinion out. And so if, you know, if if we're in that conversation, if if for the rest of our life, if you say tell me more, use one of these other goat phrases, I am never gonna resent that as I was using a technique. No. It's you're communicating and truly connecting and wanna know what's going on. So, there I totally get what you're saying.

There are some of those you're like, oh my gosh. They're doing that therapist thing or that kind of stuff. It also

comes back to intent because, you know, I once posted on, like, I don't know, some social media like TikTok or something, a little video or something about using yes and. And one of the comments someone posted is like, oh, the salesman once was trying to use this on me, and it was just so, like, annoying. I'm like, yeah. It's because their intent wasn't, like, to really yes, and you. Their intent was to sell you or to placate you or because they learned it in a class as a technique. I think Tell Me More is like that as well, like and you have a chapter in the you have a chapter in there, a section about, like, mindset and intent and tonality and, like, the the they are goat

phrases, but even as a

goat phrase, if it's said with the wrong intention or phrase, if it said with the wrong intention or tonality, it's gonna fall flat.

Yeah. Oh, there's a world of difference between, you know, Avish, tell me more and tell me more. You know, that's a totally different things. Right? And that's true for so many of these is where where is the sincerity of your heart? And and listen. I'm a human being.

I wanna be real about this. Right? Is I get worked up. I get fired up. I like I don't I hate being misunderstood. Like, that's one of my Achilles heels. I feel somebody's misunderstood me.

I'm like, no. And I only, like, fire up and and all the rest. But even in that, when I'm feeling that way, I can still say, okay.

Tell me more. I really do wanna know. I I I'm suffering right now, but I really do wanna know so that we can work through this in a positive way, or another, and I don't know which one you chose in the the curiosity thing, but I'm curious how this looks from your perspective. That's one of my favorite ones. Mhmm. And that one is another one that that I can say in all sincerity even when I'm not really feeling it, and it helps get me out of that kind of mental state, loosens up that my amygdala isn't as seized up anymore. And so I I wanna be real about this.

This doesn't mean that I'm always, like, in some kind of or that, you know, listener that you're in some kind of zen state where you're like, oh, I am even keeled, and I am just conflict pro. And, like, that's not what it's about.

And so before we move into the next one then, I think one thing that came up here that is something I talk about a lot, and it's it's a whole chapter in your book. And I I to me, I think this is even more important than most people. I think people underlook this in in our in our modern world, and that is the role and importance of emotions. And we've already talked about, like, when I feel defensive or when something makes you and so, you know, you have a chapter called beyond the drama, deescalate emotion. To me, it's all emotion. Like and I think it drives performance. It drives creativity.

And, you know, when you think about relationships, which is kinda what communication's all about, like, really, relationships are just emotions. It's my relationship with you is how I feel about you and how you feel about me. And so many of these phrases are harder to implement when we for us, when we let our emotions go, they're gonna be less effective, the other person's high emotional state. So could you talk a little bit about kind of have you seen the role of both emotions and the the powerful phrases and how you kinda manage that?

Yeah. You know, so often when our emotions are flaring up, and I and I'm talking about the ones that we feel like don't help us contribute to collaborative situations. Like, I'm getting angry. I feel disrespected. I'm I'm feeling misunderstood. I I feel unsafe that my safe safety is at stake. This is not gonna work out for me.

This can keep me from getting promoted or or lose my job or whatever. Any of those things that I'm feeling, when I'm feeling that way, I'm gonna have an emotional response to that doesn't help the conversation. So I need to be aware of those for myself and figure out, okay, what's going on here? And use some of the questions that are there to start getting into that for myself, but even more importantly is paying attention to what's happening for the other person and or the other people. And if I'm seeing some of those responses there, to go there. And, you know, I use a phrase reflect to connect. Like, if I'm seeing somebody in, you know, in a one on one accountability conversation, for instance, where my intent is to help them succeed, and they're firing up.

They're like, I don't know what's wrong. Why do you keep busting my chops about the And then I to, like, approach it with compassion and say, you know, I'm noticing that, that you're standing up, that you're pacing, that, you know, your your your voice is louder, sounds to me like you're really upset and frustrated here. Is that right? Like, here's the emotion I'm picking up.

Do I have that right? Just to see the person that way. I'm not telling them how they feel. I'm asking. Here's what I'm picking up. Do I have that right? And then back to, can you tell me more?

Can you tell me what's happening for you right now? And those kinds of things immediately start to deescalate because I'm reestablishing safety because I really do care and I care about and I honor the other person's emotions and what's happening for them. And in doing that, that lessens some of that intensity, the of whatever's going on and establish some way for us to have some conversation going forward. I I've had some crazy ones of those in the past that where I've seen that these techniques, they really do work. Because, again, you gotta come from a sincere place. And and I think the biggest challenge for me in these is I want to see the other person. I wanna be seeing myself too. Yeah. So it's balancing that and making sure that as we're having that conversation, we're establishing it.

So to say, okay. Here what's your concern? What is the successful outcome gonna do for you here? Great. Here's what a successful outcome will do for me. Once I've got theirs and have made sure it's mutually understood, now I need to get mine in there too. And so it's a bothand.

This isn't just only paying attention and looking out for other people. It's looking out for all the needs of all the participants, including yourself.

Which is, I think, an important point because it is so easy to get caught in this, like, well, I'm gonna lower the conflict by just focusing on them, and let's try to get them what they want. But establishing in the intersection, like, that synergy of what you want, what they want, finding middle ground. And if and if not, if we're really, like, diametrically opposed, then we can still use these techniques to find a path forward. Like, it's not always about I think that's the thing is, like and I talk about this with yes and. It's not, like, a magic thing where it's like, oh, we'll magically always find a solution that you were both super excited about. Like, once in a while, I mean, sometimes and maybe frequently depending on the type of work.

Like, one person's gonna get their way, the other person's not. So

how do how do

these phrases or or, like, what's your experience sort of managing that?

So one of my favorite approaches to that reality of life, and that is a reality of life, is clarity and, specifically, clarity around who owns which decisions. And as members of a team, as leaders, as executives, doesn't matter what our role is. If we can invest in clarity so who owns this decision? Let's say we're talking about something as a team.

Who owns it? Is this gonna be a a vote where it's a majority rules? Is it consensus where we all need to be able to live with the outcome, or is one person deciding? All three of those are justifiable, legitimate ways of making that decision. Mhmm. There are different different times, different places. We're gonna use all 3 of those.

The key is that we establish before we get in the discussion who owns the decision. So if we can ask that, that's a great clarity phrase that you can ask no matter what your role, no matter what your job title is, doesn't matter. Hey. We're talking about this. Just quick clarifying question. Who owns this decision? Are you are you making the call of each?

If so, then I'm gonna try to participate to the best of my ability to persuade you. If we're voting, I'm gonna try to vote persuade the team and figure out what I wanna vote for. And if it's consensus, then we're gonna be here a while while we work through until we can all live with something. And so now I know how to engage, and I also know how to let go.

Yeah. I remember when I ran an improv group for 7 years, we kinda get new members every time we audition. And, like, on the first meeting, I kinda lay out the rules of group, and I would tell them, like, look. I'm very open minded, and I'm open to discussion. I'll listen to anything you say. At the end of the day, like, I'm gonna ultimately make a decision. You know?

Because it was like my group. I was running it. I owned it. I, you know, put all the outlay. But it's kinda like that I gave that clarity right up front, and we never had a a conflict from that because people knew, like, alright. And I think you're right, the clarity. And then when you go back to the tell me more with the connection, I find and one thing I talk about is, you know, if you actually connect with people and learn, like, if I I use the yes, but, obviously.

If you come to me with your idea and I'm like, yeah, but we're gonna do it this way, you immediately feel conflict and disrespected. If I tell if I do yes and tell me more, and you feel like I really understood where you were coming from, what your position would get the clarity on what you meant, reflect back. And then I say, David, here's what you're saying. This is the way we're gonna do it. Here's why. You're gonna be much that rejection is gonna feel much more positive to you.

And I I would take that even a step further from, and this is a tool out of courageous cultures. It's not specifically in powerful phrases. But when somebody brings an idea like that, 3 different things, 3 steps in our response. So one is gratitude. Let me start by saying thank you for bringing the idea in the 1st place. Doesn't matter the quality of the idea. It may be the strategically dumbest idea you've ever heard.

But the fact that they cared enough to think about it and bring it to you, we want more of that. So let's encourage it. Like, hey. Thank you so much for thinking about how we can get better for caring.

I really appreciate that. Then when this is what you were doing. You were adding information to the conversation. So you got to tell me more, fully understand. Okay. Cool. Here's some additional information you might not be aware of.

This other department has this priority or, strategically, this is where we're heading or, hey. That sounds like it may be something we can test.

Let's test it out. Or, hey. Sometimes, we're already doing that, and here's where you could find out more about. So whatever information we need to add, then we can wrap up that conversation by inviting them to keep thinking, keep contributing. And that's where we can coach their direction a little bit. So, like, back to your improv group, you were like, you know where we could really use a great idea? I need to figure out how to get everybody here on time.

You know, let's that's where we could use a, okay, or whatever it is, like, where you need an idea. Right? Or, hey. You know what? We need more places to perform. So if you got any thoughts on that, I'd love to get your thoughts on where we can, do some some is there some workshops or some stage before or whatever it is. I'm just making stuff up.

I'm sure your group had plenty of places to perform. But you know what I'm

say that.

You know, it's that it's that invitation to continue contributing so we can build that out. And those are some some more powerful phrases, that aren't specifically in in this book, but they are very powerful in terms of how you're

I know about that redirecting, so you're not you're not ending the conversation or shutting them down. I kinda use this I don't talk about this a lot, maybe in a longer workshop. But, you know, there's yes and and yes but. What invariably comes up when you have a longer discussion is the no but, which is like, no. We can't do this thing you're saying, but here's what we can do or no but why don't you move? And so when you combine that with the understanding, the reflecting, the con like, it's just I I like that idea of of redirecting instead of just stopping the conversation because it keeps them involved and and keeps them, going forward. So let's talk about, and we've already sorta we don't need to, like, kinda go line by line. We already mentioned a few of the phrases, but in clarity, I like for clarity, the one I picked was what would be a successful outcome for you?

It's it's a little bit more nuanced than that. What would a successful outcome do for you?

Oh, interesting.

And and I know. And and we started with an earlier iteration that was along lines of what you're saying is, you know, oh, what success look like? Right? And we say that, and I say that all the time. So the reason that this one as we really workshopped and what is the what we're looking for here is that when we say, what would a successful outcome do for you? It gets beyond somebody's position. It gets beyond whatever their starting ask is.

It gets beyond that tug of war over any of the things that are the surface things, and I find out what are they really needing to achieve. So let's say you and I are starting in on a project together. Alright. Avish, what does success look like for you on this project? And you're what would it what would success do for you? And you're like, you know what? I I've got all the accolades I need.

I'm happy with my position. I wanna be home to see my kids. At the end of the day, I need to get home and see my kids and watch their their sports or their theater or whatever. Okay. Cool. That's you know what? You'd wanna do good work and everything, but that's part of the successful outcome of this project is you're home to see your kids.

I say, great. Part of what a successful outcome would do for me is I'm really looking to distinguish myself with some, meaningful projects because I really am after a promotion for this. So if we both know what we need out of this thing, now instead of arguing about when we're meeting or or just getting into a tug of war, no. It needs to be 45 minutes. No. It needs to be an hour and a half. Now we're saying, okay. I know what you need.

I know what I need. Let's start looking at some solutions that can meet both of those needs. We can't ever have that conversation if we don't know what those needs are in the 1st place. And so that's why that phrase, what would a successful outcome do for you, is so powerful. Gets under the surface, gets all the cards on the table, no hidden agendas. Now we can start solving things.

And they're also sort of connected. Right? Because not only is that gonna clarify, it's gonna build connection. Because if you if I'm asking you what's an outcome we do for you, you're feeling like, oh, he's actually cares about, like, what this means to me. So it's obviously, you've broken them up to kinda keep a little more focused, but they all sort of, like that's why they're the goat phrases. Right? It's not just like a a single use.

They all sort of feed into each other.

Absolutely.

Because building off of that then, both tell me more and what was successful outcome do for you are also phrases that sort of are are lead to curiosity or are, like, kinda fill in that dimension. Right? I forgot which one you had said, you had mentioned, but I I went with what you suggest we do next. Mhmm. Because it's, again, it's very self serving. But, you know, in improv, I talk about it in my in my keynotes and workshops that, like, the moment an improviser is doing an improv game or story or scene is like, oh, here's where this story is gonna end up is like, they're screwed.

The it's gonna suck. But if they just focus on alright.

One next step. What do I do next? What do I say next? So focusing on one step at a time.

So I like to be curious. It's like, alright. What do you suggest we do next? And just to kinda keep it very simple, but but kind of, again, outwardly focused what they think.

And from a relationship perspective, yeah, people are much more likely to take action on something that they own. So if you're getting that suggestion from them, it's even more powerful that way as well as you were saying, reinforcing connection, reinforcing clarity, so they definitely work together.

Yeah. Yeah. And then finally with commitment, you know, we already talked about that. And for me, you know, the curiosity phrase, what do you suggest we do next? Now it's not quite commitment because you have it committed, but it's kind of the next step is, you know, what's one action we can both you know, I forget the exact ending of, like, take or or do or commit to. And this is it's something I gotta get so much better. And I don't even work with other people or lead a team, but just in, like, sales calls or, you know, checking calls with gigs.

Like, just getting that commitment of what are we gonna do and by when? It's just a it's such a game changer.

It is such a game changer, and I call it scheduling the finish. But any conversation that I'm having where there's any kind of intent that I wanna make sure we follow through on, when's it on the calendar for both of us? And that can be an accountability conversation. It can be an ideation conversation. It can be, getting together to have a beer conversation. It doesn't matter. Like, whatever it is I'm investing in, if that intent is real and I mean it, let's get it on the calendar so that we've got a scheduled follow through.

If we need to change it, we need to redo it, whatever. Fine. But it makes it real, and it defines it in a way that increases our accountability and builds trust. And then if there are exceptions or things happen or we're not able to follow through on it, now we've got a built in time to talk about it, talk about what happened instead of just letting our trust erode because we never followed through.

And what's great is that I was gonna ask, like, well, what if you put something on the calendar, but then the person doesn't follow through and, you know, misses the meeting, and now you're back in that kind of ghosting slash vague phase. I'm like, oh, wait. There's phrases in the book for you, like, reach out to someone and, like, what do you say to them when you feel they've dropped the ball or weren't being accountable? And so the the first level is, alright. Let's set a commitment. But then if they don't, then you've got solutions for what to do if they don't follow through.

Absolutely. There are, like you said, 20 some chapters of all different kinds of scenarios. So including, difficult coworkers, including navigating those tough conversations with your boss or your boss' micromanager. Your boss isn't following through on their commit. Like, what do you do? They won't make a decision. All sorts of different common workplace conflicts and specific phrases you can use.

Yeah. It's it's and, again, we don't have time to go through all that in this. I want people to read the book because it it is almost like a like a menu. Obviously, you can read the whole book, a lot of great ideas, but it's also very sort of, like, prescriptive. Like, oh, I'm having this specific problem. Let me go to the table of contents, find that chapter, and and go right to that. And we are kinda coming to the end of time.

And so, you know, we and we talked pretty in-depth about a lot of things. I wanna ask about, 2 other things that are not directly in the book, but are related. I'm curious if you've heard of these or what your thought is or if you've if you talk about these. And they're they're both related, so I'll talk about them both. It sounds very much to me, and and this is something I've been thinking about a lot, that this bills this type of communication builds psychological safety within teams and organizations. And along those lines, are you familiar with the concept, or have you teams and organizations. And along those lines, are you familiar with the concept?

Or have you heard of the phrase creative abrasion? Mhmm. So that's what I was thinking a lot when I'm reading this, because I've been thinking about how my yes and can really help with psychological safety, and I talk about Pixar and creative abrasion, all this stuff. And I'm curious how that how you see because when I read your book, I'm like, oh, this fits a lot in there. I'm curious if that's something you talk about at all or if you you kinda use that as a selling point or or for people who don't know what the heck I'm talking about, what what what does even psychological safety mean?

For sure. So I'll I'll address that. And, in terms of scheduling to finish, I do have another, call that I need to hop for. So I'm gonna answer this one, then I'll need to to get to that appointment.

Got it.

So talking about psychological safety, Amy Edmondson from Harvard wrote the forward to courageous cultures. And so she's, in many ways, one of the pioneers of the research around psychological safety. And it's basically defined at the level of a group or a team because everybody in that group feel comfortable up to share their truth, to share their perspective without fear of reprisal and and all the rest? And so 100%, these phrases are ways to help individual people for you as a listener to be a contributor to psychological safety on your team and help to create that not only for yourself, but also for your teammates. And when you do that, then you get the benefit of, of each, what you're talking about, of the creative abrasion, the ability to bounce different ideas and build something that is more than the sum of its whole of its parts. And and that's what I love most about leadership and teamwork and all of it is when it when it's at its best, we are doing something more than any one of us could do individually. And and that's a magical thing.

Yeah. And that is exactly, I think, what your book sort of helps people get to, you know, initiate the conflict for long term stability and better environments. Better culture is kinda like the other book you wrote about. So fantastic. Well, yeah, we are at the end of time. You got another call. So just real quick, people want to, contact you or learn more about you and your work and the stuff you and Karen do together in the book.

How should they find you and reach you?

So the book is available anywhere books are sold. And since you're a podcast listener, it will tell you that Karen and I narrated if you like the audio version of things. So the audio book is actually the best of surprising to me, the best selling version. It's selling well in all versions, but it's paperback, Kindle, ebook, wherever whatever platform you use. So that's available everywhere. You wanna learn more about us? Letsgrowleaders. com, and, you can find out all the the ways that we can help you there.

But, that's where you can go to learn more.

Fantastic. And we will link to all that in the show notes and on the blog post, Chris.

David, thank you very, very much. Super appreciate you taking the time. And, yeah.

We'll have you back on. We got more to talk about. We didn't get into the fantasy novel, yet. So we'll, the the story book. So we'll have you back, and we'll talk more.

That would be several shows worth of conversation, I'm sure. Each is always a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks for having me.

Thanks, David.

Alright. Cheers.