In this episode I sit down with innovation strategist, improviser, and author Melissa Dinwiddie to talk about her new book, Innovation at Work: 52 Micro-Experiments for Brave Leaders Who Want to Unstick Teams, Spark Ideas, and Build What’s Next.
Melissa shares how organizations can build real cultures of innovation—not through giant retreats or complicated systems, but through small, playful, repeatable “micro-experiments” woven into everyday work.
We explore why psychological safety matters, how constraints actually fuel creativity, the hidden danger of perfectionism, and why leaders must create environments where people feel safe enough to experiment, fail, and learn.
As two improv-minded creatives, we also dive into how improvisation principles apply directly to leadership, innovation, and organizational change.
If your team feels stuck, overwhelmed, overly cautious, or trapped in “innovation theater,” this episode offers practical ideas you can start applying immediately.
Key Takeaways
Why innovation often fails inside organizations
The difference between valuing innovation and practicing innovation
How “micro-experiments” create sustainable change
Why psychological safety is foundational for creativity
The power of constraints in unlocking innovation
How perfectionism blocks progress and experimentation
Why “making crap” is essential to breakthrough thinking
The role of curiosity in leadership and communication
How playfulness lowers defensiveness and increases engagement
Why teams underestimate other people’s willingness to help
Relevant Links
Unedited Transcript
Avish
Hello, Melissa, and welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Melissa Dinwiddie
I'm great. I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for having me, Avish.
Avish
Well, I am super excited to have you here. And you win a prize because you are my first repeat guest.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Oh!
Avish
Yeah, I've had a few people who we've talked about, oh, come on back on at some point. But the timing, because you have just released a new book, so we're here to talk about that. And so welcome back. How have you been?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Well, thank you. Well, I, as you might imagine, have been very busy. Because as you very well know, writing and then launching a book, it's a lot of work.
Avish
Yes.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And I'm kind of tired.
Avish
Yeah, I know that feeling. And just real quick, I'll get into kind of your bio in a second here. But I don't know if you're like me, but you know the launching and promoting the book is a whole separate job. And there's a point where when you finally get the book done, written and signed off on, lay out everything, you just kind of want to be done.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yep.
Avish
But then you're like, oh no. Now the hard work begins. You're
Melissa Dinwiddie
not. Yeah, no, exactly. Now the hard work begins because the launch is its own enormous project. And guess what? That is the part that I am most challenged by, let's say, because project management is, I can do it, but it's not my favorite thing.
Avish
Well, I understand that. I know you can do it. You're a creative by background and training, but obviously you've bridged that into a lot of stuff for business. So I know you can do it, but I'm like you, where it's like, yeah, I can do it. But the writing was the fun part, although the writing also was painful at times.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Avish
And I want to get into the whole, some of the process and a lot of what's in the book. But before we do that, for people who don't know you and maybe who didn't catch you the first time you were around, you were here, could you give us the one minute sort of who you are and what you do?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yes, I am Melissa Dinwiddie. My business is called Creative Sandbox Solutions. I work with leaders who have been given an innovation mandate, and they think, now what? How am I supposed to create innovation in my organization? They really have no idea what to do. So I go in and I help them take innovation which they have as a value in their organization, and I help them turn it into a practice.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And I do that through, really similar to you, play-based methods and integrating really micro actions. So similar to my book, which is based on these 52 micro experiments, I don't require them to pull their team away from day-to-day operations through day-long or weekend-long or week-long retreats, which shuts down the entire team or organization and operations stop. I help them learn how to integrate innovation into their day-to-day and week-to-week workflow.
Avish
Got it. And I definitely want to get into all of that. And I love the idea of the micro experiments. It's a very cool approach.
Avish
Before we get into that, you have a very, while you work a lot in corporate and with businesses and things, you have a very robust creative background, both in terms of training and performance, which I think is very relevant to what we're going to talk about here today. So could you just kind of share some of the highlights of that background?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, I like to think of my sort of career path as I've been a bit of a ball and a pinball machine. I trained as a dancer at Juilliard. The only reason that I didn't end up in a dance career is that I got injured very young. And I ended up kind of falling backwards into a career as a professional visual artist. And I made my living as a visual artist in Silicon Valley for 15 years. On the side, I had a little side hustle as a jazz singer, performed and toured as a jazz singer-songwriter. And I am also a performing improviser, and I still do musical improv on the side.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So I have a very wide and varied creative background, which I bring to the work that I do with teams. Because as you know, the same things that we bring to creative skills, creative life, improv, art, these are the same skills that teams and leaders need in order to innovate, in order to do the things that leadership and innovation require: listening, creativity, all of these skills that we develop as artists, as improvisers, all the different performing arts or visual arts, the skills that we need to develop in order to master the various different creative arts, these are actually the same skills that we need to develop as leaders.
Avish
Yeah, or at least the skills that we should develop as leaders.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yes. Yes, exactly.
Avish
Often forgotten or downplayed. Well, I know there's a whole kind of story and experience about how you transitioned, how you got into that, but I'm pretty sure we talked about that last time. So I'm going to link to our first interview in the show notes so we can kind of just jump right in right now to the meat of what you're up to now.
Avish
So you've got this book out, "Innovation at Work," and I read it. It's great. I reviewed it for you as well. And rather than me, you touched upon a little bit about how it's like micro experiments. But could you give us the overview of sort of what the book is all about?
Avish
And it's more than it's like different than the book, per se. It's not like, oh, I'm going to read from page A to Z. And what was your kind of thought process in putting it together this way?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, you know I actually OK, so here's actually what happened, Avish. I was thinking to myself, what is the book that I can write, that I can put out there that is going to be most useful to my ideal client? And I didn't actually realize this until after I wrote the book. But after I wrote the book, I remembered it's very sad that this didn't go into the book, but I remembered that I had a conversation with a tech leader, a local tech leader.
Melissa Dinwiddie
It was just a market research conversation. It wasn't a sales call. And I remember asking them, what programs have you done that were useful to you? And they said, you know there was a leadership training that we did that worked pretty well. And what I really liked about it was it was very lightweight. It was only four sessions. They were one hour each. And I thought, dang, that's not a lot of contact time.
Avish
Yeah.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And as an applied improv practitioner, as somebody who's used to being hired to go in to spend a full day or multiple full days over several weeks with a team, with an organization, I'm thinking, wow, that's really different from how I typically work, right? And then I said, OK, if you were to wave a magic wand and you had the ideal program that delivered exactly what you needed, what would that look like? And this leader said, we would be able to download skills like Neo in The Matrix. And I thought, oh, you know I can't do that. You know I'd be a zillionaire if I could. But what would be the next best thing? And I realized that my book is the next best thing.
Melissa Dinwiddie
How could I deliver something that would enable people to have the kind of transformation that they want without pulling them away from operations? And so this concept of micro experiments, that is exactly what I'm trying to help leaders and organizations have. So that's what the book is attempting to deliver. It's like the next best thing to downloading skills like Neo in The Matrix. So the book is like the five-minute solution, the 20-minute solution. It's not quite the Neo download, but it's the next best thing.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So it's this concept of these small experiments that they feel like creative play, but they function like business strategy. These five-minute to 20-minute, a few of them are slightly longer, these creative challenges that unlock weeks of forward momentum. And the book is for directors, for VPs. They might be leading innovation. They might be leading product. They might be leading cross-functional teams, especially those folks who are really tired of what I call innovation theater. They're really craving practical tools that actually work inside real-world constraints. And they don't want to pull their team away from operations. They want to be able to take that value of innovation and turn it into a practice. And they understand that in order to do that,
Melissa Dinwiddie
they're going to have to build that practice. And the way to do that is by integrating small little actions. I call them micro experiments on a regular basis. And so I give them this guidebook, this toolkit. And it's not just the 52 micro experiments. You could do one a week for 52 weeks over the course of a year, but it's also a whole series of protocols that combines the experiments together according to various different crises that you might be experiencing.
Melissa Dinwiddie
It's a series of various different lists of quick start options for, do you have this particular issue? These are the experiments that you might want to look for. Or is this, how much time do you have? These are experiments according to the amount of time that you have, the complexity levels that you might want to look for, et cetera, et cetera. Various different quick reference charts so you can select experiments by time or problem type. Or do you need an experiment for remote teams or in-person teams, et cetera, et cetera?
Avish
Yeah, what I found really interesting about that is some books do that sort of thing. But most of the books I've read that do that always put that at the end. It's like, here's all the content. Like, here's all my brilliance. Now, if you want to apply it, then at the very end, it's like, OK, now and you kind of flip it and start with that. It's almost like very reader/audience in mind. Like, before you even get to the content, it's like, here's what you need. Here's what you should do. And it was.
Avish
And it's not just like a couple. You've got a lot of different situations and scenarios that I think are very relevant to, what if your product launch is failing? Or what if you need to fix this issue? Your teams are remote, like you said. So I thought that was really nicely done, how it's like you lead with, here's the value for you. And I guess the whole thing is about saving time, right? It's like you don't need to read the whole book. If here's your problem, read these things and then get moving.
Avish
And was the 52 intentional? Was the 52 number intentional to make it a year? Or was that just kind of a happy accident?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, you know I thought about when I first was thinking about writing a book, to be quite honest, my first thought was, what is a book that I could write really quickly? I will be completely honest with you, Avish. I mean, I was like, what is a book I could write in three weeks? OK, that did not happen.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And I came up with a whole bunch of different ideas, you know 25 tips, 30 blah-diddy-blahs, 36 yada-yadas. And I landed on 52, and I really liked that for a number of reasons. Because yes, one per week for a year, I really liked that. It divides very nicely into four sections. I really liked that. So yeah, just for a number of reasons. And also, it ends up being a very robust number. You know it's not like a pamphlet.
Avish
Yeah.
Melissa Dinwiddie
It's a solid book. So it ended up being.
Avish
Solid, also without being overwhelming. I think the fact that it is like 52 in the year doesn't feel like, oh my god, I'm going to be reading this book forever. It's like, all right, here's it's very funny, though.
Avish
I had the exact same thought with my book. You know when I first thought of writing a book, I don't know, there's a speaker, I don't know if you're familiar with, who I love. He's a friend. He's great, named Marc LeBlanc.
Avish
And he's got this little book. It's skinny. It's small. It's like 100 pages. And he goes around and talks to speakers. And he says, you know you don't need a big book. This little book has got me more business because it just summarizes what he does.
Avish
It's like 7,000 words. He's like, you could write this in a weekend. And I kind of had the same thought. I'm like, yeah, I got to stop overthinking this book thing. Let me just and then the more I got into it, kind of like you, it's like, no, I don't want to write I don't want to write a short book I can write in a weekend. Like, I want a useful book that's got depth. And it would have been so much easier to write that short book.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Right. I mean, maybe my next book will be the short book. I mean, I really tried to write a short book, but it didn't come out that way. So maybe the next one will be the short one.
Avish
Yeah. You know we all say that, and then you get into it. You're like, oh, here's my I think that's a difference, though, when you've got these creative improv minds. Like, once you think of one idea that goes in the book, three more jump in, and then three more jump in.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Right.
Avish
Yeah, I think the more linear, technical, analytical people are like, oh, yes, I'm just going to write about these three things to be done.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Well, I tell you, I mean, really, what happened with me, Avish, was that I just kept asking, how can I make this valuable? And you know first, it was just like, OK, here's the 52 micro experiments. And then I thought, you know it really needs an introduction. Like, it's just going to look like it's just going to look like a blog post.
Avish
Yeah.
Melissa Dinwiddie
If I just put out a book that's just 52 micro experiments, it needs to be more than that. So I kept asking, how can I make it more valuable? How can I make it more useful? And I kept thinking about my ideal reader, who's not just a reader. I mean, as you said, it's not a book that you sit down and read. It's a book to be used. It's not a book that you read, you put on a shelf, and you forget about it.
Melissa Dinwiddie
It's a book that you it's going to be dog-eared and sticky-noted and used. Ideally, the entire team is going to be using it, and everyone on the team is going to have a copy. And somebody different is going to be leading a different micro experiment every week. And maybe everyone in the organization is going to have a copy. And it's going to be used over and over again all the time.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So it's not a sit-and-read kind of a book. And it's not a read-from-beginning-to-end kind of a book. It's a, what experiment do I want to run this week? Let me find it and then put it down. And what experiment do I want to run next week? Let me pick it up and find it kind of a book. So I had to keep thinking, what is going to make it more useful and more valuable? And I kept it wasn't from a place of, how do I pad it? It was from a place of, what is going to be helpful for my ideal reader?
Avish
Yeah. And it's funny. It was such a similar journey, because I had a similar one with mine. And I even first read and made notes from a book whose title is Write Useful Books. It was like this kind of I don't know if you read that book, but that was like a manual I used. No.
Avish
It's like, yeah, literally, the title is Write Useful Books. That was one of the things I used to model my book. And you know I had the same thought. And I don't think mine's quite as hands-on, application-based as yours. You know but that was still my rubric.
Avish
And it's so funny, because I think the folder in my Google Drive, kind of the top-level folder when I start writing this book, still says Short Lead Gen Book. Like, that was my thought going into it. It was going to be a short, lead-generating book. But like you, the more useful I want to make it, the more I'm like, well, I need this. I can't just do that.
Avish
Now, I want to get into the usefulness. I want to talk about some of the sections and experiments. Before I do that, just real quick, you had mentioned, how is this going to help my ideal reader? And so who have you kind of defined as your ideal reader for this book?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, my ideal reader is an executive in
Melissa Dinwiddie
a tech company. It doesn't have to be a tech company, but that's really sort of like my center of the bullseye of the target, a SaaS company, a software company who has been handed an innovation mandate.
Melissa Dinwiddie
The CEO has said, we need everyone to be innovating more. It's your job to make this happen. And they need help to make that happen. And it's not necessarily a learning culture. They have innovation as a value in the culture, but they don't actually have a culture of innovation. So they need help making that happen.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And so they're like, OK, now what do I do? And so they pick up the book. And they'll use the book to help start building that foundation. Little hint, one of the first elements, first parts of that foundation is psychological safety. And the micro experiments will help with that. I mean, you really need everyone in the organization to be on board in order for that to happen. But if you really start integrating these micro experiments throughout your organization, it will create a sea change.
Avish
Yeah, and I can definitely see that happening. And I like the fact you made them so short. Otherwise, like you said, if it was like, oh, well, you know once a month, you got to get everyone together for half a day, it's like, no, but it's a great way to do this.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, I mean, believe me, I love leading those half-day and full-day workshops. I love doing it. But the challenge is, the frustration also as a facilitator is, I love leading the workshops, but if the organization doesn't do something to maintain what you do in those long workshops, the transformation ends. I mean, there is no transformation. It's a fun, really invigorating day, but transformation happens over time. It doesn't happen.
Avish
Well, also, I assume that would be another great use for this book, because it would bring you in to do that half-day, full-day retreat, but then give everyone a copy of the book, like, look, Melissa's given us the foundation, helped us play, helped us feel what this can be like. Now, let's use the book to do these micro experiments to keep it going and build on it so we actually do implement and keep learning.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, I mean, ideally, the book would be part of a larger program where they would have the book would be used on a regular basis, be incorporated throughout, and then they would bring me in, or it could be somebody else, but ideally, it would be me, right?
Avish
It's your book. Your processes should be you.
Melissa Dinwiddie
They'd bring me in and pull people out for it doesn't have to be a half-day. They could bring me in to do a brief intervention of some sort on a periodic basis to keep sort of reinvigorating and reinjecting and also coaching people through.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Because although I do incorporate, as you saw in the book, some scripts to help people facilitate the micro experiments, we both know that facilitation is not the same thing as just following a script.
Avish
Yeah.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So bringing me in to help their leaders learn how to facilitate the micro experiments would be really beneficial as well. So there's lots of ways I have different packages that organizations can work with me to bring me in and help infuse this whole concept throughout their organization.
Avish
OK, yeah, that is great. So let's get into some of the content. So it's basically your sort of three-step create the impossible framework with a fourth section, which is literally create the impossible. So what we talked about last time and kind of been the foundation of your work has been this three-step create the impossible. And so you kind of expanded that. So why don't you just start and just give us the quick overview of that framework?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, so my framework is create the impossible framework is three steps, play hard. So the concept of play hard is to just let yourself try things, experiment. When you think back when you were a kid,
Melissa Dinwiddie
you didn't do things for rewards or money or gold stars. Imagine when you were a little kid playing in a sandbox. You would just ask yourself, what would happen if I did this? That's the concept of play hard. Just let yourself try things and make messes, which brings us to step two, make crap.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Now, intentionally use rather provocative language for the steps of my create the impossible framework. But I love this step. This is maybe my favorite step, make crap, because through the process of adulting, we all learn to show up very masked up, showing up as our excellent selves at all times, and that everything we create has to be excellent, has to be perfect at all times. The problem is, if we don't allow ourselves to make crap, if we don't allow ourselves to fail, if we don't allow ourselves to be mediocre, then we never get to the good stuff. We need to make the crap in order to fertilize the good stuff.
Avish
Yes, that's a great metaphor.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So that's the concept of make crap. Have you ever had a photo shoot?
Avish
Yes.
Melissa Dinwiddie
You know that your photographer takes a bazillion snaps, a bazillion photos, right?
Avish
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Out of those photos, there's maybe a handful of really good ones. The rest are trash. You don't want anyone to see the rest, right? They're terrible.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Your eyes are closed. Your tongue is sticking out or something. The photographer is not waiting until, I don't know, you have your face arranged in the perfect way before they click the shutter, because they would never get any good photos. They have to just let the shutter go a bazillion times.
Melissa Dinwiddie
That's the concept of making crap. Photographers understand this inherently. They just hold the shutter down and go, chhhhhhhhhhhh. That's the concept of making crap.
Avish
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So we've got play hard. We've got make crap. And then step three is learn fast. Turn every experience into a learning opportunity, into a growth opportunity. So we've just played hard. We've just made crap. Now, what are we going to do with that?
Melissa Dinwiddie
We're going to take all that data, every experience that we just had, and say, OK, what can we learn from this? So often, we get a lot of lip service around that from organizations, but the learning doesn't actually turn into anything. So the learn fast step is about, now we're going to take everything that we experienced, all the good stuff and especially the bad stuff, and we're going to actually turn that data into learning and move forward from that to something better and something new and something better.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And this is an ongoing, repeating cycle. So we are always in one or more steps of this create the impossible framework at all times. And if we are constantly thinking really mindfully about being in one or more of these steps at all times, that will inevitably lead to breakthroughs and innovations.
Avish
Yeah, and I love it. And obviously, I'm biased, because someone with a crowd background as well, I'm talking about dealing with change and innovation and things like that. So I 100% agree and endorse all those things. And I like how this is in this idea of creating the impossible, which now that was like the framework. But in the book, you've got a whole fourth section, which is literally just create the impossible. Create the
Melissa Dinwiddie
impossible.
Avish
So talk to us a little bit about that. Why did you decide to kind of break that out into its own thing beyond just the three steps of the framework?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Well, I mean, obviously, there was just sort of the logistical fact that there are four sections to the book. I have three steps of the framework. So how do I square that circle?
Avish
Yeah.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So that just sort of made sense from that perspective. So I turned that fourth section into a section so each of the sections is structured around one of the steps of the framework. And so the fourth section, create the impossible, is subtitled Building Innovation Habits.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And so the executive challenge there is that innovation initiatives so often fail because they depend on these special events or inspired moments rather than systematic capability building. And that's what the book is really about, is about building the habits through these micro experiments. And the problem is, so often, breakthrough thinking stays episodic instead of embedded in daily operations.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So what we want to do is really use these micro experiments to embed creative problem solving into daily workflows and sustain momentum beyond that initial enthusiasm that can come from those fun workshops that we do, right, and build long-term innovation capabilities.
Avish
Yeah, it's so interesting, because I also think it kind of feeds in, like you said, you talked about culture and how you build that culture around it and psychological safety. I came across this quote years ago, and I have no idea who did it. And I've Google searched, and maybe I'm just making it up. Maybe I should just say it's mine now. And I thought someone did research on this, but they said that the most desired quality in an employee by an employer is creativity. The most rewarded trait in an employee is compliance.
Avish
And so it's kind of exactly what you're saying. Like they say, innovation mandate, and we want you to be more innovative. But then they don't build the culture and the habits. It's not part of the system. And in fact, you've probably seen this, like when an employee does get creative and maybe makes crap, instead of being like, hey, you made crap. Good. What can we learn from it? They get criticized or told they did something wrong.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I know I've read so many case studies and stories about
Melissa Dinwiddie
companies where terrible, horrible things have happened, like planes have crashed, things like that. And the reason that those things have happened is because of a culture where speaking up is shamed, right? And so people don't speak up because they don't want to get shamed. They don't want to get sanctioned. And that ends up with 300 people dying in a plane crash because the co-pilot is afraid to speak up to the pilot.
Avish
Yeah, that's the extreme.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah.
Avish
Yeah, but even just on a day-to-day, people lose jobs. You just completely undermine your innovation, because yeah, and that all comes back to what you started with, which is psychological safety. Like if people don't have that.
Avish
And this book is great. Like you said, we'll build it. So let's get into this. Let's get into a few of the things. We don't have time to go through all 52. But I want to kind of go through, maybe talk about one or two, depending on how much time we have of each one. So I kind of pulled some of the ones that resonated with me or that I thought were particularly interesting, probably biased, the ones that either I really like, oh, I like that, or I have an interesting story about too, but this is not about me.
Avish
But all right, so in play hard, and if there's any you particular, like, oh, no, I really don't want to talk about this one. We can talk about that as well. I really like the one bold ask, because I talk about something similar, which is like, what is your one bold step? It doesn't need to be giant, just one step. So could you tell us what you mean by one bold ask and just kind of give us a quick, what that micro because I think also people listening maybe are a little confused about what you mean by micro experiment.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Avish
Kind of explain what that is.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, so just to set up how the book is structured, each micro experiment has little sections inside of it. So first of all, it explains how much time to sort of estimate. So for example, one bold ask, I say estimate it takes about 10 minutes. Team size, 3 to 12 people, although I give examples for how you can adjust it for different scale team sizes. And then I say the innovation killer for this particular experiment. For this one, teams are really hesitant to make requests that could accelerate progress, which creates these hidden bottlenecks and leaves really valuable resources unexplored.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So the experiment itself is to ask each person on the team, what is one bold request that you could make this week that feels uncomfortable but could move our goal forward faster? And then you have them identify their specific ask and commit to one request. So some examples are requesting executive time, cross-team resources, external partnerships, budget adjustments, or process changes. So they might be requesting any of these things. Those are some examples of some big asks that people might make.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And the reason that this works is research from Harvard Business School shows that people consistently underestimate other people's willingness to help by 50% or more, because there's this fear of rejection that creates these artificial constraints that limit our access to resources and limit our opportunities for collaboration. And bold asks can often unlock these permissions or partnerships or support that seemed impossible, but they just simply were never requested.
Avish
Yeah, and I got to say, for a lot of people, and perhaps myself included, that one idea and that one statement that people underestimate others' willingness to help by 50%, that one line is probably worth the price of the whole book, because it's so true that we are just so afraid to ask, what if they say no? What if they think I'm being rude? What if I'm putting them out? And I don't know if you experienced this.
Avish
We both are launching books. You're a couple of weeks or a month or so ahead of mine. And part of that process is reaching out to people to do advanced readers, maybe leave reviews. And I would feel that like.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yes.
Avish
I don't know. And I was telling the guy I'm working with in my launch that every time I'd get a reply, my heart would be like, get a little extra thump. What if they're like, leave me alone, or I can't review a book, or why would you? But every single time, it was someone saying something very positive or nice. And if they did say they couldn't do it, they're usually very kind, like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm just so swamped. I can't.
Avish
And it just goes to the heart of this point that we do. I do. I know everyone just and just if you just switch that and started doing bold asks, it could be innovation as a team, as an individual, could just like that is such a great I think that's why this one jumped out at me is because I was like so related to it, so passionate about it.
Melissa Dinwiddie
I'm so glad you spoke about this one, because it's really interesting, because I have the same you and I are like, oh, we're sorry.
Avish
It's that insecure performer thing. You seem so confident on stage, but each time you're like, eh, I don't know.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Oh my god. Yeah, I have so much of that same insecurity. And I think I had a lot of insecurity about even putting this in the book.
Avish
Really?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah. Like, oh, nobody's going to relate to this. So yeah, I'm really glad that that spoke to you.
Avish
Yeah, and I think anyone listening now could do that. I mean, obviously, they should read the book. But right now, just in my language, I might say, like, what's your one yes and going to be, right? Like, what's your one little yes and? But it's the same thing. It's like, what's the one bold step? So all right, that's great.
Avish
All right, so that's kind of in the play hard section, right? We're going to just have fun. And I think that's a big piece of it, right? It's a bold ask. It feels nervous. And if it was like in a business success book, you'd probably put a lot of pressure on yourself. But since it's in the section on play hard, it's like, just play. Don't put so much pressure. Just ask and just be playful about it.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah.
Avish
So I think that's great. All right, let's talk about make crap. I want to talk about one micro experiment from there. And for all of them, I've written down like three, but I don't want to go and try to figure out which one. You know, I think the one well, all right, we'll start with this one, because I feel it's the most related to what I do in improv, and that is the constraint challenge. And I write about constraints as well, so that's why this resonated with me. So this is where you I believe in this experiment, you actually create an artificial constraint as almost a way of like a thought experiment.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Oh, yeah, experiment 26. Yeah, so this one, you take your current challenge, and you add an artificial constraint that forces creative problem solving. I love this because it's like I mean, this is like some of my favorite improv games.
Avish
Yes.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Like slips of paper when you're in an improv scene, and there are slips of paper on the ground that people have written random lines from movies or books or things on. And you're playing a scene, and you're improvising. And then at any point, you just randomly pick up a slip of paper, and that's your next line of dialogue. And you somehow have to justify how that makes sense when it's totally unrelated to what you've just said. I love that.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So this is very similar. And as creatives, always we know that constraint is one of the most powerful ways to unleash creativity. So again, take your current challenge, add an artificial constraint that forces creative problem solving.
Melissa Dinwiddie
So here's some examples. Solve this with only free tools, or design this for users who have never used technology, or build this with a team of three people, or create this solution using only things available in a hardware store. And then you spend 10 minutes designing within the constraint. And you know as improvisers, you and I know that you could do this by asking your team to invent new constraints on the fly.
Avish
Yeah, and it's like.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Do this underwater, or do this where everybody has to be standing upside down in order to use your product, or I don't know. You know, just have fun inventing constraints, and that would add another layer of fun to the whole thing.
Avish
Yeah, and again, even though it's the make crap section, you carry through the play hard.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah.
Avish
And so many people who are not practiced in how to in improv or creativity, they think the constraint is going to limit their creativity. But you know if you've done improv, you know every game, every short form game rule is a constraint, right? Like the blind line, which incidentally, I am familiar with that game, because that is my keynote closing exercise. I do blind line for the audience.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Oh, I love it.
Avish
I close every keynote with that. It's great fun. And if you ever do an improv, like if you do more artistic improv, they have a thing called an open scene, which is like two performers just take the stage and just start improvising. And those are so much harder, because you have nothing to bounce off of in the constraint.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yes.
Avish
And once you learn that, you realize, wow, that's like the cheesy line, like every problem is an opportunity. It's like, no, but every problem is a constraint that you can then use as like a launching point for your creativity. So I love that exercise. And it is such a simple little experiment. And I love how you say, you know, make it fun, because the temptation, I'm assuming, for someone is going to be like, all right, let's start constraining. Well, how can we do this with 50% of our budget? Like, ha, ha, ha, which you know is a fine constraint to play with. But throwing in the random things, like, well, how would we do this if we couldn't communicate in English? Or how would we do this if we were underwater? Or you know, like just it makes it fun and opens up creativity.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah. I don't know.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And I was just thinking, like every time you get on stage as an improviser, if you invite the audience to give you a suggestion, that's a constraint.
Avish
Yes.
Melissa Dinwiddie
If you walk on stage and you just start, like you said, that's terrifying, because there are no constraints.
Avish
Yes. It's like the blank page is the hardest to paint on or write on.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yes.
Avish
Totally blank. I would like you know because I've talked about constraints as well. And I would say, look, if I tell you tell them your story, you'd be like?
Avish
If I say, well, tell me a story about a dog, you'd be like, eh, maybe.
Avish
If I say, oh, well, tell me a story about a dog who gets lost and needs to find his way home. Like, oh, OK, now I can go.
Avish
It's like, all right, well, tell me a story about a dog who gets lost, needs to find his way home, but comes across a dragon. Like, oh.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Exactly.
Avish
Each suggestion constrains the story more, but that makes it so much easier.
Melissa Dinwiddie
It gives you a path.
Avish
Yes, it gives you that's exactly it. So all right, fantastic. And we are kind of coming close to the end, but I do want to touch on a couple more things. I want to talk about one that just well, two real quick, and you can pick which one or maybe touch on them both in Learn Fast, just because they sort of made me laugh. And I just love the idea, and they're so random. I love Emoji Retrospective and the Idea Tinder. I thought we're very, very, very clever. And I think just I could see a group having a lot of fun with those. So could you explain one or both of those?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, so Emoji Retrospective. And this one works really well if you're in a virtual setting. You could do it either way. But so it's super simple. You ask team members to summarize the last sprint or project or quarter or whatever using exactly three emojis. So no words are allowed initially. And you just give everyone some time to choose their emojis really thoughtfully. And then you share all the emoji combinations without explanation. And you look for patterns across the visual stories before discussing what the symbols reveal. And that's it. That's the whole experiment.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And the reason why this works is that visual metaphors bypass our verbal defenses. And they reveal just like any kind of art or music, they reveal emotional truths about our experience that traditional questions will often miss. And emojis create this kind of psychological safety, while they also can surface some real issues, because they feel really playful rather than confrontational. But they also capture really nuanced feelings about team dynamics.
Avish
Yeah, and I love the I love the let's look for patterns, right? So it's not like we're going to go around, OK, Bob, why did you pick the angry emoji? And Sheila, why did you pick the crying? Like, it's like, I know. Let's look for a common theme. You're not calling anyone out. And it's also a fun twist, because a lot of management techniques will be like, all right, well, first, we've got to start by taking the temperature of the room. And the way a lot of people do that is by asking, like, how is everyone feeling right now? And people don't want to speak up, you know, like you said, without psychological safety. But this is a fun way for people to be like, all right, let's put it up there. And that just tickled me, and I could see that being really fun and very, very useful.
Avish
All right, since I mentioned it real quick, could you just give us what this will be our last one. What is Idea Tinder?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, yeah. So
Melissa Dinwiddie
OK, so each person writes an idea on cards. It could be physical or digital cards. And then you review them one by one. And you make choices by swiping right to keep, just like Tinder, or left to discard. There's no middle ground allowed. And you just set a timer, like a 10-minute timer, and sort through all the ideas by swiping.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And then you review the discarded pile afterward and ask yourself, is there anything worth reconsidering? And re-swipe.
Avish
Yeah, and in the book, you say it's because like forcing people to make a binary decision, like really hem and hawing, oh, let's rank this on a scale of 1 to 10. It's like, nope, you got to decide yes or no.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yes, exactly. It eliminates that analysis paralysis. And it really helps to reveal people's true priorities. And the speed constraint also is really helpful. It prevents overthinking. And it helps excuse me, it helps access intuitive judgment about the quality of ideas. And it also helps surface genuine enthusiasm as opposed to that polite consideration.
Avish
Yeah, it's and again, what I like about this is the way you've and I think and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the bonus goal is if people go through and do the experiments and follow the book, then they'll kind of it'll become more ingrained. And then they can the book will just be there as like a reference, but they can start because what I love about this is it'd be easy to say, oh, we're going to vote on the ideas, yes or no. And it's like, all right, that keeps it real. But by labeling it as Idea Tinder and we're swiping, like that adds that playfulness to it.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yes.
Avish
And I think a lot of the experiments are like that, where you know there might just be variations on games or techniques people have done. But the way they're traditionally done are a little too serious, a little too boring. And this just adds so much fun and creativity to it.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yeah, and I mean, as you know, I would call this sort of improv light. Like a lot of these are not as involved as some of the more improv activities that I run with teams when I am brought in to work with an organization. So they don't require a lot of improv facilitation skills for people to facilitate. But there is a and they're very similar, you know, or identical to a lot of activities that people may have seen before. But they have a little bit of a layer of playfulness that is really helpful for building psychological safety. And again, it's so much of this is about just really weaving it into the culture so that it becomes part of who they are and how they identify. And hopefully, they can start developing their own games and their micro experiments, as we call them, because we know that companies tend not to like the word game.
Avish
That's a fair point.
Melissa Dinwiddie
But they can start building their own and creating a whole new library of micro experiments.
Avish
And as you were explaining one of them, I forgot what we were talking about. I realized that probably something important, these don't have to be, in fact, should not be one and done. It's not like because it's 52, you might be like, all right, well, we already did. We already did the emoji one. So now we got to like you can come back to these. And it almost becomes like, oh, it's like Emoji Monday or whatever it is, like the first Monday of the month. Absolutely.
Avish
Because yeah, it's not just like a one and done. And then you've got to move on. It's like, no, just go back to them, people. And people get familiar and play more and get more and more playful each time.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Yes, absolutely, for sure.
Avish
That's fantastic. All right, well, Melissa, this was great. And we've only talked about four of the micro experiments in the book. And there are 52. And there's the guides at the beginning about based on what you're trying to achieve or what your challenge is, which experiments work best and based on time or number of people. Like it's really it is really a very useful, well-thought-out book. I think anyone who does have an innovation mandate could would definitely benefit from. And anyone who even if you don't have a mandate, if you just want to add innovation at work, as is the appropriate title of the book, that would be great.
Avish
I'm going to finish up here in a moment with a final question. Before I do that, let people know where they can find out and get the book, where they can learn more about you and how you work with teams and organizations and any place you want people to connect with you.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Absolutely. So you can find the book at innovationatworkbook.com. And you can download a free preview at innovationatworkbook.com/preview. And you can find me at melissadinwitty.com and also on LinkedIn at Melissa Dinwitty.
Avish
OK, we will link to those. But for people who might be listening while driving or going for a walk, how do you spell Dinwitty?
Melissa Dinwiddie
Thanks for asking, Avish. Dinwitty is D as in David, I-N as in Nancy, W-I-D-D as in David, I-E.
Avish
Excellent. Well, thank you very much, Melissa. I'm going to leave you one final question. I don't know if you remember this from last time. But I end every podcast episode by asking by first telling people that you know I talk about yes and, as you know, because I honestly believe the world would be a better place if everyone just started with a default mindset of yes and instead of yes, but. So what is one small thing that you believe that if everyone did differently or better, it would make the world a better place?
Melissa Dinwiddie
I love this question. And
Melissa Dinwiddie
now I'm so curious what I said last time, because I can't remember. I
Avish
don't know what it was. I got to go look it up, too.
Melissa Dinwiddie
But you know this is a small thing, but it's a huge thing. If everyone would OK, so the next time you notice yourself feeling judgment about someone, like, oh, that person is so fill in the blank, if you could step back and get a little curious. And the reason why I say that is because I'm going to tell you a little story.
Melissa Dinwiddie
When I was in high school, I remember I became friends with a couple of girls who were a year behind me. And I remember walking with them one day and them saying to me, wow, you're so nice. All last year, we thought you were the biggest snob. And I was mortified, because I was really shy and really quiet. And they thought I was a huge snob because I was so shy and quiet. And they judged what they perceived as snobbishness, but what was really me just being incredibly reserved and quiet and shy.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And that always stuck with me. So whenever I am around other people that from the outside look like they're being really snobby, but are I think, hmm, I wonder, maybe they're actually really shy. Maybe they're really uncomfortable. Maybe they're socially awkward. I try to get really curious.
Melissa Dinwiddie
And I have extended that to other ways of being, to try and step outside, try and get really mindful, try and get really aware, and get curious instead of judgmental. And Avish, if everybody would do that, I think the world would be a completely different place. And it's a small thing, but it's actually a really huge thing, because it's really hard to do, because it takes a huge amount of awareness. And it's something that I really challenge myself to do. I'm not perfect at it by any means. But that's my thing.
Avish
That is a great answer. And I agree 100%. And what's interesting is if you build that habit, curiosity is also a direct line to creativity and innovation. So it's sort of.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Absolutely.
Avish
So it's both purposes. Well, Melissa, thank you for that answer. Thank you for coming on the podcast and for this great book. To everyone listening, go check it out, innovationatworkbook.com and innovationatworkbook.com/preview to read a sample. And you get all the links. Melissa, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming back again. And you know who knows? Maybe we'll do a third time soon.
Melissa Dinwiddie
Thank you so much for having me, Avish.
Avish
You got it. Thank you.