In this episode, I sit down with one of my oldest friends and longtime ExxonMobil leader, Alexander Bolkhovsky, for a deep dive into leadership, motivation, and navigating organizational change. Over his 27-year career with ExxonMobil, Alex has held roles across engineering, technology, sales, and global strategy. But more than the titles, it’s his mindset—curious, adaptable, and people-first—that makes him a standout. We explore everything from leading massive reorganizations and setting “impossible” goals to staying energized when your to-do list feels endless. Whether you’re managing a team or just trying to lead yourself, this episode is packed with gold.
Key Takeaways
Why adaptability is a learned skill, not an innate trait
How “bold goals” create breakthrough thinking—even if you don’t hit them
The leadership superpower of assuming positive intent
How to balance long-term strategy with short-term urgency
The real reason motivation and fun matter more than discipline
Simple systems for making your workweek more productive and more enjoyable
Relevant Links
Connect with Alex on LinkedIn: Alexander Bolkhovsky
Unedited Transcript
Avish
Hello? Hello, Alex. Welcome to the podcast. How are you, my friend?
Alex
I am doing well, Avish. Thanks for having me. How you doing?
Avish
Absolutely. I was I was sort of cheekily earlier thinking, oh, I'm gonna tell Alex that. Oh, you know, you are the the friend I've known the longest who I'm having on this podcast. But then I realized, oh, no. I had a a I don't know how well you know him, but Dan Nestle who, was from our college as well, who I met a couple years before you. But you are one of the oldest friends I have on this. So
Alex
I will consider that an honor, but not that much of an honor, apparently. So
Avish
And since we have known each other for so long, I am familiar with, with your resume, your your vast work experience, all the company. I I know every company you've worked for, because you are, as I mentioned before, the we started recording, you're you're like this unicorn in the modern work world and that you got a job out of college with ExxonMobil. Was it just Exxon when you got the job there?
Alex
Yeah. It was actually Mobil.
I got there three months before they announced the merger. So Okay.
Avish
So your Mobil became ExxonMobil, and you are still there, what, twenty six years later?
Alex
Yep. This year will be twenty seven. Absolutely. It's Did
Avish
you get a did you get a special pin at your twenty fifth anniversary?
Alex
No. Actually, I got the twenty year pin. Now my next What do you mean? Thirty year pin. So, yeah, that's it. That's it.
Avish
That's fantastic. Well, before we get into kinda what why I invited you on here and wanna talk to you about, Could you give us, like, just a one minute overview, a little bit about kinda what you do and kinda, I mean, you have so many different job I I wrote down all of your job titles. You got a lot of different ones, but just kinda the the very, very brief kinda synopsis of your journey and kinda where you are now.
Alex
Yeah. No. It's I'm I'm probably one of the most boring guests you've had on the podcast. So yeah. But I I've worked for one company since I started. In the twenty seven years, I think I counted. I've had about, fourteen, fifteen roles with the company.
I'm an engineer by background, so I started as a technical guy. And, my first few years in the company was all about doing more technical stuff. But I moved into to leadership roles. And, really, the last, fifteen or so years, I've been moving across. And I went from being somebody who was a technical expert, and I am trying to at least be somebody who's more of a leadership, expert person. So I've done a lot of things and adapt a lot of different leadership positions all across the world, mostly in The US, but I spent some time in China as well, and really had a lot of great experiences meeting folks and and learning a lot from them and leveraging my leadership skills and knowledge to try to get the best out of folks.
Avish
Yeah. Which is which is great.
And you you sort of, you know, humbly said, you know, just, you know, trying to trying to be a leader. But, you know, your your current title if if LinkedIn is TB believed is and look at someone else. You were a technology portfolio manager, which actually, frankly, that sounds less impressive than your earlier titles because the word you have the word global in three four of your previous titles. So you were the global technology manager and, the global sales manager, which is interesting. Right? And and so, first, I'm just saying that to to build you up a little bit. Like, you've you've really led at a high level.
If you've been at a place for twenty seven years, you've, you know, you're gonna move up, of the ladder. But and I think this is interesting when we're talking about about change. And I think you told me this probably twenty some odd years ago when you first started to get transferred around. Is that sort of the ExxonMobil philosophy? Right? Is they want they intentionally move you around every like, this wasn't you job hopping or internal. This was, like, they want to move you around every couple years.
Alex
Yeah. It's actually interesting. I've I've never chosen my next job.
Actually, I did once. I asked for one job, and I got it. In fact, I've specifically asked to not go into jobs that I ended up getting. But the whole concept is and and your your app the change element is absolutely one of them. The whole concept is as we progress in the company, either as a technical person or me as as a management person, the goal is we need to see the breadth of the company. We need to see everything from I mean, ExxonMobil, a lot of people know us know us because of fuel, but we are leaders in chemicals. We're leaders in the we're leaders in low carbon solutions at this point.
And so the goal is in order to to capture value, in order to be able to lead an organization, we need to see as much as possible. And adaptability is absolutely core of being able to be successful as you move across roles, but even within a given role. So part of the reason we move around as much as we do is is to actually get good at being adaptable. Adaptability is not something you at least most of us, I certainly didn't come prepared and are good at to start with. You get there after actually experience it, screwing up a few times and how you adapt, and then eventually getting really good at it.
Avish
Yeah. And so this is a bit of a tangent, but that's kinda how we go in these conversations is, there's this book I read recently called The Art of Impossible by Steven Kotler. It's all about how to peak performance, how to get in a flow state. And there's a whole section on creativity, and what he recommends is if you wanna kinda build your creative muscle, he said read for twenty five minutes a day outside of your discipline. Just it doesn't matter what. Just not like target, like, I wanna be a better leader, so let me read it. Like, literally, anything you're curious about because that breadth of knowledge actually makes you better at your core thing because it's those, like, sort of serendipitous connections that other people don't see.
And I would assume that, you know, you bouncing around so many, like, technical leadership, sales, facilities. Like, you've been all over the place, but then you could probably pull in areas from areas that wouldn't be so obvious.
Alex
Yeah. No. That's I mean, it that's a perfect example.
I do that honestly, that's where I feel I I end up adding the most amount of value in the roles that I go into. It's when I have team members who are struggling in an area, I know where else in the company or even outside the company because of the external relationships I've developed over the years I can connect them to. We have situations where we might be using one technology in one of our business areas, And that technology suddenly I realized, you know what? If we adapt it into the area I'm in now, it actually is a huge either cost saver or an opportunity to create a new product. Yeah. Sure. There's adaptations that are needed, but the ability to connect those dots and have that broad of an impact is one of the things I've gotten out of the experiences I've had.
Avish
Mhmm. And so that's sort of the the ExxonMobil philosophy is is to bounce you around. And I don't know how many conversations like this you've had with people outside of ExxonMobil, but, do you see this being applicable to someone who's in a company that doesn't intentionally do this? Like, how could how could a normie, let's say, deal with this? Like, you know, they have similar sort of serendipity.
Alex
Yeah. He I mean, whether it's, I mean, it doesn't have to be a normie. I mean, I've I've had I mean, I've been in my current role for, like, three and a half years. Right? At at a certain point, you you need to balance what you know well and continue to figure out, well, how do I create new abilities to connect the dots? And I so I I'll give you the same advice I would give folks that join my team. And it honestly, it all starts with people. So right?
It's the reality is most of the stuff I've learned, I haven't read, or I haven't just read. I've talked to somebody about it, and they've they've helped me understand more. So what I tell my folks for individuals who are gonna be a little more focused in an area, it's, first of all, figure out the connections, either through your own linkages or leveraging your contacts, your colleagues, your supervisor, who may have knowledge in areas that are nearby, and that could be valuable. So the benefit of that is twofold. One, you're gonna learn more in an area outside of where you are, and two, you're gonna figure out how you can bring that in and and support your own activity. And then the other thing that I often tell folks is no matter how much you love your job, it's still a job. And doing work that is only assigned to you, and this is what I what what would happen in a in a corporation is good, but think about what are the areas you're gonna enjoy working that wouldn't come natural and find a way to engage.
Luckily, in a big company, you usually can leverage people to help make those connections. Many cases, I've had folks on my team that, have an area. I mean, in in in my organization, we work in a lot of, technologies that, that we're looking basically medium term in terms of profitability, and they wanna work on something that might be twenty years away. And I link them into the parts of our organization where they can be involved in the brainstorming or the, the idea generation associated with that. And the value is, like, huge. Right? Because one, it continues to expand what they're thinking about.
They get more enjoyment out of it, and they also bring ideas back. And no matter how disparate of an area, I have rarely found an opportunity where somebody isn't bringing something back that adds to the team they're on today.
Avish
So is this sort of like the the whole Google, like, 20% time where they get like I said, like, you encourage people to do stuff that's outside of their primary job function?
Alex
Not always. I will say deep days. I mean, the fact is everybody's looking to be efficient. But, yes, it's it's to do things really more that that they are going to get enjoyment on that's a little outside of their focus area. It doesn't mean that I have somebody who's in technology and I say, go to go on a sales trip for for a few days. It's more about I try to understand what they're interested in. And it's a conversation I'll have with folks.
Sometimes during the year, they're so busy on their core activities. It's it's hard to find that time, but it's something we look to connect to link to some development plan or and, actually, not or, and an area of interest for them.
Avish
Well, and is the the keyword there. So, speaking of which, let's let's make this conversation about me a little bit, because what you're talking about there, it's this thing I've been I depending on the time and the topic of the keynote. I talk about it in my keynote, and I kinda wanna get your thoughts on this because it sounds similar to what you're saying. So I say the entree into it is, I talk about how to, you know, avoid burnout to get yourself more engaged or if you got in place, I get them more engaged is saying yes and to yourself. And I say one of the best ways to do that is to set what I call an impossible goal, which is a goal you don't know yet how to achieve. But then you set the goal and you figure out how to do it. But it has to be a goal you care about.
It can't be a strategically sound goal or, like, I should do this. But something like, I would love to do that, but I don't know how. So but instead because then you start engaging your creativity. You go you learn.
You test stuff and you play. So it sounds similar.
Well, Well, let me ask you. Is that kinda similar to what you're talking about? Is that along the lines of what you're saying? Like, go figure something. You don't know how to
Alex
do it, but go learn
Avish
and try because that's gonna get you pumped and excited and energized.
Alex
Yeah. So yeah.
There I mean, so, actually, that that that element resonates in a couple of ways. One is the the concept of going, figuring something out is I I view that more as how do I get somebody additionally motivated and have all those side benefits associated with it. Right? I'm a I'm a big proponent of understanding people's motivations Mhmm. Because my view is people do better when they enjoy what they're doing. So if you can figure out what motivates them to enjoy it, you you then find opportunities to them to work on it.
Avish
And you're shocking that that is, like, a profound statement. Like, duh. But it's it's like just not it's so you go out in the world. It's just people seem to forget
Alex
that. No. I mean, right, so the concept of work allowing work to be fun at at not always. Right? Like, listen. All of us at times are miserable at work. Oh, yeah.
But the reality is we all have such a great opportunity to find ways to have some fun at work, either in terms of the camaraderie or what we do, that it's scary how the how we don't take advantage of that as much as we do. So when I was chatting about trying to find where people are motivated and have fun, that is something I I view as a little different from what your comment was, which I think is fantastic. This concept of setting impossible goals, actually, we like, the term I use are bold and the term we actually have used across ExxonMobil is the concept of bold goals. Mhmm. And, actually, the value and I I love your concept is the reason you set them is be is because you don't know how to get get at them. In fact, we do that a lot in the in some of our, like, big next generation projects that we look at, where we we basically say and I'll I I could talk specifics, but I'm sure your audience won't care specifics about chemicals, projects, or refining projects. Surprise. But the reality is we we look at a a technology that normally would take ten years to develop.
And there's one way of going about and saying, hey. Do it in nine years. Okay. If you set nine years as a goal, you'll probably get there. People will find a way to cut 10% off of of a project. They usually sandbag, get to start with, just so that they can save the percent off at the end. Right? So but the key is is if you don't tell them to do it in nine years, you tell them to do it in five. Impossible. Right? It's gonna force different thinking.
It's gonna force them to go talk to people they never would have thought about talking. It's gonna force them to research outside and say, who was able to do something even close to this in five years? And the big thing is even at the end, if they don't do it in five years, it's okay. Because if they do it in six, they didn't meet the goal, but they did it better than anyone else in the world would have been able to do it. And so it sets this amazing objective that has to be semi realistic, but has to also drive them to do it completely differently. And then at the back end knowing that, you know what? If even if you don't hit that five years and you hit six, you better still give yourself a pat on the back.
Because remember where you started, it was ten.
Avish
Yeah. And and this might be different for, you know, corporate versus, like, solopreneur individual.
Alex
Yep.
Avish
I find that if you don't hit the goal at all, the the setting of the goal and the attempting to achieve it will often open up new doors that you would not have seen if you didn't go after the goal and will you'll have developed skills that you would not have either. So sometimes you don't even achieve the goal, but, wow, now, oh my god. Now this whole new path I never even even conceived of is is open to me.
Alex
Yes. Although I will say in a corporate level so we've done this. We've, we've been pretty good about trying to encourage broader folks to do this appropriately. If you do it too much, you lose all credibility. Could you imagine if your boss, every time you came in and said, hey. I'm gonna take a week to do this. They said, well, I want it in a day.
And it wasn't just on the important things, but they said it on everything. Suddenly, you're gonna hate your boss. You're gonna never expect that they're gonna give you a realistic timing on anything that they do. Correct. So it does have to be targeted. It has to be on the biggest things.
Avish
Yeah. It's big.
In fact, I I do say that. I'm like, you don't you can't apply this to everything because that's how you get burnt out. Right? You're just but, like, one thing. Like, some the thing that matters, you know, that's where you really put that effort in. So Yes. No. That's awesome.
And and so why I mean, I don't know how much outside or how much you've thought about this, but is this something that you've sort of and I kinda know the answers since I've known you for thirty years. But is this sort of how your attitude has always been? Because it's it seems, from a managerial standpoint, that flexibility, that freedom to let people maybe be a little bit less efficient in the primary function so they can explore and create and and and set goals that maybe they won't achieve. It seems to not be as common as a trait in in managers, because of metrics and KVIs and things like that. So is this something you've always sorta is this the way you've always operated, or do you have to kinda learn it? And and how did you that that develop?
Alex
Well, first, let me start by saying that just because I say it's what I try to do doesn't mean I'm actually fantastic at doing it all the time. I mean, the reality is of whether you're on your own and you're focused on an element that seems to be taking all your time, or if you're in a big company and you're you have a bunch of projects and deadlines, it is really hard to maintain it over time. So it is it's it's it's an item that I I can't say that I do perfectly across the entire team or across my entire organization. I don't. Mhmm. But the concept of, I mean, the concept of thinking about how to leverage people's motivations is something I've learned over time, and actually I've learned it because of myself. So a lot of these things you you sort of experience firsthand, and then you figure out, alright.
When I finally get into a leadership position, I'm gonna start figuring out how to try to apply it with my team. And the reality is I haven't always liked my job. I've been here for twenty seven years. Mhmm. At at year five, I was I had a resignation letter ready to hand in to somebody, and then last minute chose not to do it with additional information. But part of it was because I didn't like what I was doing. And but because and then eventually when I and when I started thinking about why I didn't like what I was doing, it wasn't just because I was assigned things I wasn't enjoying.
I hadn't spoken up. I hadn't told the people I was working for, hey.
You know what? I really don't enjoy pure research. I would much rather engage with customers more frequently. Mhmm. I would much rather talk to people about how how to do things externally to ExxonMobil. And I sort of just swallowed it, and I assumed the only change I could get would be to leave.
Avish
Wow.
Alex
And so when the reality crept on me and, actually, the reason I didn't resign is, somebody came to me and told me they I was moving roles within the company. It was the third time I had moved positions in the company. I was, I mean, I was in my twenties at the same time. Right? You mature, you get older, you you learn some of these concepts. And then I I I two things prepped out. One is the power of giving people the opportunity to influence what they work on and understanding what motivates them so that when even they can't tell you what motivates what what they enjoy working on, by understanding their motivations, you can give them projects or engagements that get them involved.
And number two is my ability to control my own destiny no matter where I am. You we often underestimate how much we can control, and we think others control everything for us.
Avish
Mhmm.
Alex
So that's that's where it came from.
Avish
Oh, that's great. And I did not I mean, I I was I forget where you were living at that point. Were you was that when you were living in Philly with us? Or
Alex
Yeah. That was when I was, we were all, living in Chestnut Hill together.
Avish
Wow. I did not I I obviously, we're getting out a lot back then. I did not know you were close to resigning. You you did not. But you maybe you remember
Alex
I had started a night program going, to get my master's still in engineering. I'd gone to And but yeah. So it was right at the back end of that. Maybe we had moved away from, Chestnut Hill, but I had started thinking about it even before.
Avish
Wow. That's all it is such a great lesson though of because because I've been there before where you're just in a situation and you assume this is the way it is, but just by sort of communicating and having that conversation I mean, you might be told no. Mhmm. But you never know. And so at least having that conversation and being, you know, can can really it's amazing how many problems good communication can sort of stave off.
Alex
Yes. No. Absolutely. Good communication.
And even if you're told no by your supervisor, nothing stops you from engaging, walking around the halls, talking to people, figuring out what they're working on. And, yes, it's a it's a personal commitment. But if you find a project that you'd like to get involved with and talk to them about, you can take a few hours a week. Yeah. You may have to work longer, but if that's what motivates you, the ability to control what ends up happening is bigger than your boss. It's even bigger than the company in most cases. We have a lot more control than we generally think about.
So, yeah, that's a mentality that I've never like, it's something that I've kept evolving. I it hasn't always been my mindset. And even after I got it, I would sometimes dip down, but it's a super, empowering mindset to have.
Avish
Yeah. And I think it's, you know, the one thing that that I talk about, and this was I learned early on in my improv comedy days is, you know, what you can control is your one next step. Like and after that, who knows what's gonna happen? So I think in in your situation, I or what you're talking about, I think people would not necessarily do that because they would try to play out the whole reel in their mind. Like, well, if I go down the hall and talk to these people, and then what if they say, yeah. And then what if I gotta go talk to my boss about it? And and so they freeze.
I'm like, I can't take the first step until I know how everything's gonna play out versus, you know, all you can really do is control your one next step, but you have total control over that. So just go and have that conversation. Like, who knows where it's gonna lead, and you can always back off of it. But, it's amazing how just being willing to take those little tiny steps can lead to somewhere amazing.
Alex
Yeah. Well, I figured that's that's sort of how you got into this gig. Right? You, you started with your own improv group after after doing it in college. Did you envision this is where you were gonna end up? No.
Avish
I had no idea. In fact and I don't share this not that it's a secret, but this is not something that really comes up. But you were there without knowing it when I kinda decided that this might be something I'd wanna do because I was doing improv, and it was great. And then I went to a Tony Robbins seminar, while, you know, for those who don't know, Alex, you graduate two years after me. I think you graduated '97.
Alex
Yeah. Actually, three, I guess. '98.
Avish
That's fine. So I was '95.
You graduated '98. So, yeah, I was living, in an apartment with my buddy, Mike, and you moved into the same apartment, comma, without telling us. You just showed up one day.
Alex
Yeah. I did. I was like, what are
Avish
you doing? You're like, I live here now. It was like it was like a sitcom. And, like, girl. And then, like, a year later, like, I was went to this Tony ride, been reading Tony stuff and whatnot. So I went to a seminar and, you know, whatever I can it was good for what it was. I, you know, I've kinda softened on my interest in that sort of thing.
But the the key for me there was watching him do his thing. I was like, oh, he's he's just basically performing, but he's also teaching. And that's the two things I liked. I love performing, but I also love teaching, like, karate and and it was like that moment. I came back from the seminar and, like, you guys were were sitting there, like, on our porch and and we went out for drinks. But that was, like, the moment that Not when I decided I'd be a speaker, but that's kinda what put that inkling. So to your point, no.
The first four or whatever three years of doing this, I had no idea. And even for years after that, like, it wasn't until I decided it was time to move on. But, yeah, had I not taken that first step of, like, well, let me let me just start this improv group. And at the time, that was my dream, and then it sort of shifted. And it's just well, let's talk about that that change and stuff a little bit because, you know, obviously, you said that, you know, one of the things that helped you stay there was you got a new position, and you've had, what, like, eight or 10 roles over 27. Yep. So every one of those is a pretty big change.
Number one is a change for you. You're often moving, not just job functions, but locations, your family Mhmm. Countries sometimes. So it was a big change for you, but it was I'm assuming, especially in the later years, it was a big change for the teams you got transferred into because you would be transferred into them as the new leader. Right?
Alex
Absolutely.
Avish
And so this is something I like to work with groups on and talk about, like, that's that you know, how do you reduce that friction that comes along with change, whether it's a new leader or new technology or a new, you know, hey. We're rolling our corporate values or
Alex
Yep.
Avish
New CRM. Like, whatever the thing is or, oh, and now we or rules, regulations, laws. Right? Like, oh, here's new environmental protections. So we gotta change this way we were doing things. So how have you found ways to sort of reduce the friction of change both for yourself when you go someplace, but also with the people you're now gonna be leading and working with?
Alex
Yeah. So, I mean, there there's couple things that have helped both at the same time. The benefit of changing roles and particularly changing roles into areas you have very little experience on is I mean, I don't even have to pretend I'm dumb. I'm literally dumb in that area. So it's it's fantastic. And and the value of that is you go in asking questions because you can't go in with the answers. You don't have the answers. Mhmm. And so suddenly, you ask these questions and and folks appreciate that they are being able and are able to provide you their opinion and their leverage, their huge experience.
Because the the thing about a company that moves certain people is there's another subset of people who they've chosen to want to develop expertise in subject areas or in technologies, and they become more pillars to be able to support the the new leaders that are coming in. So I spend my mantra in every move is, honestly, for the first three months, I focus almost exclusively on the people and almost zero on the actual area I'm running. It's probably an over over simplicity of it, but I spend all my time with the people for two reasons. One, listening to them, understanding them, understanding what they know, understanding what's going well. I always start with what's going well, because if I break any of that, then even if the the area needed fixing, if I already break the little few things that are going well, then there's not gonna be anything to fix on the back end. And then, of course, understanding what they what they wanna resolve. And I also have a second rule, which I is not always popular, but is I trust is critical in doing this. Right? Mhmm. So my going in position always is I give trust initially to my people.
I and yeah. Do I would I trust them with my life immediately? No. But I trust them with pretty significant things. Mhmm. And only if they prove that I can't trust them do I take that trust away. I'll do some verification, but I don't require that they prove that I should trust them on day one.
I give it to them first with the expectation that not all of them, but that helps them then give me their trust earlier than later.
Avish
I love that idea. And I think that's the way it's funny. In my own terms, and I haven't really talked about this in a while, but maybe after this conversation, I'll I'll work it back into my programs. When I say, you know, most people, they like they say yes, but and then they want you to prove to me that I should say yes and to you. Whereas I'm like, why don't you go in and say yes and and then prove to me that, like, I can't trust you. It's like the exact same same thing. And I think what I thought it was a lot of it comes down to sort of this idea you had about you can control more than you think.
And I think the reason we don't, a new leader or even an old leader doesn't trust is because that fear of losing control. Like, what if this person doesn't do something and then but if you're like, well, I'm gonna trust them. And you know what? If they screw up, like, well, you know, I'll figure it out. Like, I'll you know, we'll respond, and then we'll still deal with it. But have you I mean, you don't have to go into specifics or maybe you don't want it, but, like, have you gotten burnt on that? Like like, have you trusted people and been like, oh, they totally screwed that up, and now we gotta scramble to fix it?
Alex
Yeah. I mean, the nice thing about going into a role is you're generally taking over from somebody who isn't totally incompetent even if it's somebody taking over from me. So things are going generally going okay. I have never I I will say I have never gotten totally, totally burned. I've I've been I've had people mess up presentations. I've had people mess up materials. I've had people give incorrect answers in places.
But all of I mean, maybe I have a high high threshold of what totally burned means. But what the the worst that has happened in those situations is fine. My boss is upset, or we were a little delayed in in a project.
That's all fixable. I mean, the one area, I had one job in the company where I was responsible for operating and safety. There, I didn't trust fully first. That's the only job I've had in my twenty seven years with the company, where if somebody did something that could kill somebody, then there was a lot more verification ahead of that trust.
Avish
And that but that's the old phrase. Right? You still trusted, but it's like trust but verify. Right? Like, you Oh,
Alex
it was verify and trust at the same time. But in any other role I've had, it has been the trust first verify after.
Avish
Yeah. Which I think brings up a whole interesting subtopic of kinda risk mitigation and really understanding what what real risk is, you know, because, you know, if you get into, like, evolution in the mind and, like, the amygdala and the fear response, it's like, yeah. It was it was trained to be afraid of, like, mortal danger, like, a saber two tiger attacking you. But the world is about fast the brain, so now we have the same fear response, but it's to, like, you know, oh, you know, Joan in accounting being mad at us.
Like, it's crazy. Like but understanding the like you said, that risk, like, yeah. Safety. Okay. That's a real
Alex
It's a real thing. Yep.
Avish
Gotta be a little bit more careful with that. But at the end of the day with the other stuff, like because it's risk reward. Right? By taking that slight risk knowing that, hey. At the end of the day, it's not a big deal. The rewards are better trust, faster rapport, better performance, all that. So the rewards are much higher, but so many people only focus on the risk.
Like, oh god. What if they mess up?
Alex
Yeah. Well, that that's a huge element of cognitive science. Right? We in terms of value, and I I'm gonna screw up the number, so I'm not even gonna try it. We tend to overestimate the downside of the risk versus the upside of the reward. We either we other we just because most of the time, the risk isn't personal risk. It affects us immediately and significantly.
Whereas the reward, unless it's money directly in your pocket, it it doesn't feel as as significant or concrete. If it's a job well done, okay.
You you you move on.
Avish
That's a good point. And so we take we we take our own success for granted or, it's kinda like you said about the if you set the the a ten year goal and make it five years and you get it done in six years, like, you you gotta remind people to pat themselves on the back because they'll focus on the downside. Like, we didn't hit the five year goal. And Mhmm. It it is interesting, but I think being aware of that, you know, people can maybe, like, mitigate that a little bit. I mean, it's easier said than done, right, because we're emotional creatures.
Alex
It it is. We we and we generally focus on the things we could do better rather than the things that we do well.
Avish
Yeah. Right? That's that's me.
Alex
That's that's all of us. Heck, I I do that even well, I I remind myself.
I've I keep fixing myself. I'm, so you know, I part of what I do for fun is is I cook. And I and I'm I'm in the midst now of of trying something for a fourth time, of a sweet that I had in Europe that, one of our friends, who I'm gonna see tomorrow loves. Mhmm. But it doesn't store well. It's called the couberton. It's just this it's a sugary sweet.
So I've made it four times. This is my fourth. The first three times, it all was in the wrong state of matter. It's supposed to be solid on the outside, and it was liquid and poured out of everything. Well, my fourth attempt is curing right now, and it's actually a little solid on the outside.
Avish
Oh, there you go.
Alex
So I've got I'm already coming to the success. I don't care if it tastes like crap. It's already a success because I already did better than I did last time.
Avish
Yeah. And that and that's the the iterative approach. Like, it's the same kind of thing. It's just oh, it's so good, but so hard. Well, let's talk about that innovation a little bit then, and kind of the risk reward because I think giving this time frames. And, you know, we had talked a little bit before we got on the recording about, you know, investing and where do you put your time and your effort and your energy. And this is something you're involved in, and and it's something that corporations deal with, but I think individuals too.
Like, do you put your attention? I mean, this is like the the the Eisenhower matrix. Right? You put your on the urgent or the important or the urgent and important versus the important but not urgent. And at this level, you balance or have to balance, like, you and the whole organization. So, I mean, why don't you share a little kind of what we're talking about and what your thoughts are on on how you manage that?
Alex
No. Absolutely. So, I mean, I'm a my my current role and, actually, I I screwed that up when I introduced myself. I didn't even tell you all what what I didn't tell you what I was what are we doing? My but my current role is a technology director for and, actually, I'm involved with, supporting three of our businesses. Mhmm. So one of the things that in technology that we look at is all of our businesses have products we sell today, but we also intend they're they're the ones I'm I'm I'm in charge of are chemicals businesses.
And so the intent is we want them to be around and and actually doing better in twenty years than they're doing today. But so every every year actually, every day, but we do we plan once a year. We have to make decisions of how much do we spend on technology efforts that will allow us to sell a little more product tomorrow versus technology efforts that will allow us to create a brand new product in twenty years. Mhmm. And, like, there's really easy guardrails. Right? So the first thing we think about but it's still a hard choice to make.
Because if you focus all your money, you'll make a ton of money tomorrow in the next week and year if you put all your money on that short term stuff. But in twenty years, we're not gonna have a business. Because without creating new products, reducing the cost of our existing ones, our customers will go to competition.
We'll get no live. On the other side, if I put all my money in for a twenty year product and make and put no money in for tomorrow, I'm not gonna have a business in twenty years to even create the next generation of products. Mhmm. So we we really do, and it's a great debate because we have discussions between myself or my marketing colleagues, sales colleagues of really figuring out where the balance and you can imagine everybody comes in from their own perspective. So the guardrails are always, hey, I need to at least put a minimum amount that I will have a good business in twenty years to launch the next product or in ten years to launch the next product. And then it's really all about the the long term view of the business that we have and and how we balance that. Because one thing I I always tell folks is I have I support three businesses.
The amount percentage of money I spend for long term investment for each one is different. Mhmm. Because the the their markets are different, their customer base is different, and we balance it based on what their needs are. So for somebody, the way I always translate it is, hey. If you think this business is gonna be around a hundred years, you better be spending money today to make sure it's around in a hundred years and put in a dedicated effort around that. If you have a really good business today and, for whatever it is, you think it might peter out in thirty, forty years or in normal people's terms, right, maybe in three to four years.
Avish
Yeah.
Alex
You know what? I'm gonna spend a hell of a lot less money for for what I'm gonna be doing in three to four years versus making sure I'm I'm eking out every last dollar I can today. Because no matter how good I am in three to four years, I'm gonna lock up shop soon after. And so the concept of understanding your long term plan to help inform the short term is how we have these discussions. And the reason we have it across our teams is because, yep, sales tends to think a little shorter term.
Avish
I was gonna say it. Right.
Alex
Right? And so you but you want that because if you let technology and marketing view it all, you may not think shorter term enough. And That's on the
Avish
flip side. Like you said, you gotta know, like, is this a business that's gonna be around in a long time then you'd be doing things? The flip side is that, like, you need to know, well, how much revenue do we need to bring in in the next month, quarter, year?
Alex
Exactly.
Avish
Because there's a minimum there. Like, you gotta and, obviously, you wanna buffer. So so let's let's talk about that a little bit because, you know, well, I'm not sure there's some. Not everyone listening is, is gonna be making, you know, corporate decisions for a fortune, whatever. Like, I don't know. What are you? Fortune one hundred, fortune ten?
I don't know what ExxonMobil is these days, but a very, very large corporation. Right? You're not gonna make these large global decisions.
Alex
To be fair, I'm only in charge of a small portion of that large corporation. So But still
Avish
and so that's it's good having that balance. But, you know, like, I was sure a little bit. I didn't wanna go too far and do before. But I literally was having this conversation with myself this morning, and I haven't, like, used Chad GPD for brainstorming, because it's, like, my personal business coach at times. But it was the same thing. Like, I have this giant I'm a solopreneur. I got one man shop.
I got giant list of to dos. Some are things I have to get done for upcoming gigs. Some are projects that'll pay off maybe in six months, you know, maybe in a year. But then you're not gonna make money this month. And so it's like, I I always get into one frame or the other. Like, alright. Let me just do the stuff that's gonna make me money now.
Let me focus on the really urgent. But then this itch starts in the back of my brain after, like, a few weeks.
I'm like, oh my god. You haven't done any but then when I focus on a long term stuff, the short term stuff sort of falls by the wayside. And all of a sudden, like, oh, man. I haven't booked anything this month. So I'm gonna I'm not gonna have any money three months from now. So how would you kind of invite you obviously do this on a larger scale, but, like, how do you you stop by guide rails and stuff. Like, how do you find that balance to, like because you kinda have to do both.
It's not one or the other. It's not like we're only gonna focus. So how do you find that that balance in what you do, and how can maybe an individual use that?
Alex
Yeah. So I I'll be honest. I'm really bad at actually focusing my own time in the right way consistently.
Avish
Mhmm.
Alex
I've tried every technique under the sun. I've done it scheduling three hours every Friday to only focus on the strategic long term stuff. I actually do it much better when I plan for the corporation than when I do it with my own time. Sure. I do think that there's there's certain things that that, I have found as a way to link the two. First of all, I I always start my weeks doing the things I enjoy the most. So I actually will put some time on my calendar to do the things I enjoy the most at the beginning of the week.
It may not be half a day or even three hours, but it'll always be an hour. I actually so and for me, believe it or not, it's not even short versus long term. I am motivated by people, so I will put time on my calendar, Monday, Tuesday, to do people related items. That gets me motivated. And then the the stuff that I know I have to do and I like the least, I put on Wednesday. Sometimes Thursday, sometimes Tuesday. Never leave it to the end because it never gets done.
Avish
Yep.
Alex
But whatever it is. Right? So if I like the long term the least, I put the long term stuff in the middle of the week. If I like short term the least, I put the short term stuff in the middle of the week. And guess what I do at the end of the week? I finish off with the things I enjoy again.
Avish
I love that. That is, it it's sort of this it's a philosophy I believe in. Right? Like, having fun and finding the fun and things. It's actually something I've been actively trying to currently work out of my own. It's when I was in an earlier meeting where I I said this. Like, I came to a point in my business where I'm like, you know, as a speaker, you speak on stage for, like, an hour.
That's, like, 5% of what I of my time. And I realized I was spending 95% of my time doing stuff I don't really like at all. So the 5% of my time, I could do what I love. So I've been trying to figure out how to add this joy. And I love this because you don't you don't the most literature on productivity and goal setting is about such a discipline and, you know, the eat the frog metaphor from Mark Twain, which is like, eat the frog first thing in the morning. If you gotta eat a frog, do it first thing in the morning because then the rest of the day is great. And that never worked for me.
It just starts my procrastination earlier. So I love this approach, which is like, no. Start and end your your week, with what you enjoy because then that builds momentum. And then in the middle, you find that time. I love that. I'm gonna try that because I haven't really thought about it specifically that way.
Alex
Because I always used to do the same thing. Do what you hate them first because then you'll enjoy the rest. I never got to do what I enjoyed because I could never start what I hated. So this the the way I started doing this. It's actually it was based on a on on literature and a course I took on giving feedback to individuals, which I still don't fully believe in, but it tends to work.
It's it's it's hey. If you're gonna give constructive feedback to people, don't just go in and give them constructive feedback. Start with what they're doing well. Yep. Then in the middle, the sandwich
Avish
Yeah.
Alex
Give the constructive feedback, and then end with with what they're and then end with what else they're doing well. Actually, I I never liked that recommendation for feedback, so I actually don't use it. Yeah. But I realized it was really good for how I do work during the week. And like I said, I don't do it for everything, but I schedule at least a little time in those sessions to hit on these key elements. And as I I'm telling you this, I realized that everybody in my company can see my calendar. And so if I have one on ones with individuals, they're gonna assume that I like the people on Mondays and Fridays and hate the Wednesday people.
Avish
Well, if if any ExxonMobil people are listening to this, realize that sometimes scheduling goes beyond this. Alex is not intentionally putting you on Wednesday. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Yep. Director Borkovsky's got me on a Wednesday meeting.
It's like it's like alright. Alright. We can edit that out too, but I think we'll leave it in
Alex
the It's okay. It's okay. I'm all good.
Avish
No. I love that. That that is a great, tip. And I'm gonna I'm gonna try that because I'm trying to figure out how to get more more real fun into my because I, you know, I have total control, like and this is about me again, but, like, I'm a one man shop, which is hard and overwhelmed. But at the same time, I have total control and choice over what I do and when I do it. And I still find myself putting these on my calendar. I'm like, like or doing that first thing.
Like, I get up early. You know, I'm usually up by, like, five ish, so I can get some stuff done before the kids get up. And yeah. It's like I put the thing on the calendar. Like, I gotta get this done. And it's like sometimes I wake up and I look at this computer. I'm like, man, I don't wanna do this.
And I surf the net for, like, an hour instead.
Alex
But by the way, I so I I told you and I are the same that way. Like, if I force myself to do something I really don't wanna do, I sort of have to trick myself into doing it Mhmm. Because I I I don't, unfortunately, share the the good self control to just go down, get into it, and finish it. I will find a way to do something else, which generally isn't very productive. It's just
Avish
So I'm working on a whole thing. The this you know, this is like a long term thing. Right? It's probably more like, I don't know, three to twelve months down the the road. And it's more of like a a one on one, like, b to c type option, right, where I wanna coach people essentially to help them with some of the things I've struggled with. And what I realized my whole approach is I want to work with I wanna help people who have they've been in the space for a while. They've tried everything, but they can't get themselves to do what they wanna do.
And everything they learn is about discipline. And, you know, so they they they they they read the programs by the Navy Seals and the military guys and the Olympians who are like Yeah. If you want it bad enough, you just wake up in the morning and do it. And I'm like, that's great. And a large percent of the population will respond to that. But But then there are these people over here like me who just like, you know what? That has never worked for me. And when I trace everything I've been quote, unquote successful at, it's it had, like, three common elements, which we didn't get too far.
But it's like, I found it fun to do. Usually, I'm doing with people I like, and there was some kind of short term feedback like a show or like a karate test or something, like, reward. I'm like, oh, that's not discipline.
That's the fun. That's the enjoyment in that. But I always felt guilty about that approach because everything I read about is, like, it's not about fun. It's about discipline. So and, frankly, I never would have guessed that about you because, you know, for all the years when we we knew each other, you seemed very disciplined with the workouts, you know, and work, and you were very dedicated to work. So that's fascinating to know that that behind the scenes, you know, inside that beautiful bald head of yours that you are, you know you know, just as flawed as the rest of us.
Alex
Oh, that dude, I'm more flawed than the rest of you. But he because even in workouts, I would find a motivator to get me to that gym that I enjoyed so that I could do the workout, some of which I enjoyed more than than others. Unlike you, I never enjoyed legs, if you can remember.
Avish
Oh, yeah. I remember
Alex
that. So, like, even when I did legs, I would find some treat ahead of the leg workout for me, whether it was a quick, curl or something else to get there. But I will tell you, I mean, part of my issue is I've read all sorts of self help books on everything. None of them work for me. But one thing I always found is if I got creative and I applied a concept for help in one area, I actually would be able to use it in another area and make it successful for me. Oh. So that's why I said in in this situation, the way I choose how I do my work is actually based on a principle of giving feedback to people.
Avish
Yeah. And that that kinda comes to the cross discipline to learn different things because, yeah, some of my best stuff that I learned both that I teach in improv and that I apply to myself is not stuff I learned from, like, a self help book or productivity book. But, no. That's fascinating because I was kind of in the same boat. Like, I have read every productivity book under the sun, every goal setting book under the sun, and so many of them don't work, but it's when I kinda apply some of these types of things. So, yeah, you and I will probably have another conversation about this thing, whether it's on a recorded podcast or or just a conversation. We'll we'll we'll talk about that.
But I will say with the fun, you know, as I said, I I've had total control of my schedule. It's a little harder now. You know, I got kids and things like that. Mhmm. But back when I was single, no girlfriend, no kids, total control of my schedule, I could not get myself to the gym consistently even though I had total control. The most consistent I ever made it to the gym was when you, me, and our other buddy, Mike, lived in the same apartment complex, and we just started going before work.
We got up extra early. We'd stop at the gym on the way to work.
So it's ridiculous. My schedule is way more busy. We're going at this incredibly inconvenient time. I was not naturally waking up at 5AM at that time.
I had to wake an alarm. But it was the most consistent. Number one, because there was accountability because you two were going as well.
Alex
That's right.
Avish
Because it was like, hey. Before work, I get to hang out with my two buddies, and it was fun. So, yeah, it goes all the way back to then just making it fun. Just
Alex
Making it fun. And that's right. The accountability is a big thing, but, honestly, if if I didn't like you, I didn't care I didn't I wouldn't have cared about my accountability or your accountability to me. The fact is, exactly, we got to see each other, like, what, three, four days a week. Yeah.
Avish
In the morning. Yeah.
Alex
In the morning. Absolutely.
Avish
Yeah. It was alright. So that's that's great because that you know, one of my, I talk a lot about the improviser's mindset, which is anyone can do improv. For me, it's really more about the mindset and the skills.
The skills comes. You got the mindset. And one of the three components of mindset is have fun. Like, if you are having fun, it improves performance. It makes you more willing to take risks. It opens up your creativity. And it clearly makes you more motivated to do stuff. So alright.
That is that is, fantastic. I did wanna talk about one more thing before we wrap up. Yeah. You know, we kinda went on a bunch of tangents here, but I wanna come back because, obviously, one of these I talk about the most is change, so I think people are interested in that. And, you know, you had mentioned because I talked to groups. I talked to companies that are are internally changing. They're reorganizing or they've grown rapidly and suddenly we're shifting.
And you actually led an initiative recently about a a reorganization. Yep. So I'd love to just hear a little bit about kinda what that was about and sort of what what your experience was, kinda lessons learned both good, like, what worked or may and maybe kinda what some of the struggles were in leading a a team or a department through a reorganization.
Alex
Yeah. No. Absolutely. I mean, it was, we actually I think yeah. We implemented it a little over a year ago. We it was an opportunity for us where we talked about connecting the dots. Sometimes you connect dots outside of groups.
We actually looked across two of the groups we had in our organization, and we thought that there was an opportunity to actually sort of merge them. Mhmm. But as we got into the study, we we realized that so it was two teams of about 80 each that we brought together.
But then we
Avish
all real quick because I'm gonna forget the why. So you mentioned when we got into the study. So what what what do you mean by that?
Alex
Oh, so, I mean, part of the things that, we we get involved with is I mean, with different perspectives, we had all I had looked and a couple of us had always said, you know, we think there's an opportunity to combine two of our groups and maybe reshuffle a few other areas so that people that work in similar types of technology areas actually work closer together. Mhmm. It and so we we looked at what we thought was really more of a was value across the board. One, we thought there was an opportunity, because we were all reasonably small groups that if you brought critical mass in, you could be a little more flexible of who you put on which project. We thought we were gonna give people an opportunity to learn broader areas, and honestly make themselves more valuable to the company, gain deeper expertise, and actually be more resilient if our business has changed. So it was, so I mean, a lot of these things come semi organically where we we, a few of us, that had worked across the company said, hey, there's there's something here. Mhmm. So for for me, anytime you do a change, there's a couple things.
One is once you start identifying the idea, you need to bring you need to make sure there's enough people bought in that you are you have critical mass to study it more. Right? Because the concept is our change ended up involving about a 50 to 200 people, modifying, like people went to, like, six different groups across the company. We merged two, but then we sent them to four others with the whole concept of we wanted to be flexible, we wanted to deepen people's expertise, and we wanted to be more effective. Right? So just because we identified something didn't mean we knew how to actually implement it. So one of the early things about doing this and, actually, we had identified this potential a year before.
But we pitched the idea, and we had a lot of other changes going on in the corporation. And and, our leadership was interested but wouldn't prioritize it. So at this point, a year later, we we said, hey. We we actually knew that there was a bit of a push to look at new things like this. So we we we brought it in and we put a team together, small team, so to study. Study what what the as is was and recommend the best to be. Mhmm. And the things that worked for us is having a team look at it brought a lot of great different perspectives.
We not only included people that were already within these teams, but we specifically looked outside of these teams to bring in a team folks that had a different perspective, had experiences with other changes, or had just really way outside of the, outside of the, box type of ideas. And we formed a really small team. It's about six people, five people.
So it wasn't dozens of people. It was a small team because we needed them to to work. They involved others, but they were a small core team. Right. So the things that worked is I knew this from before that if you put in 10 or 12 people, four or five people do all the work anyways
Avish
Yeah.
Alex
And the others just slow them down. So we put in five or six, I think in this case, it was six, really high performers who we knew would would act, and we let them figure out if they needed to bring in other people for ideas, but we let them go and act and put a recommendation. And so how
Avish
do they how do they study it? Do they, like, go and interview people and talk to people? And, like, what what is kind of some of the way they they research before making their recommendations?
Alex
Yeah. So they, I mean, they, yeah, they interviewed folks. They looked at the the organizations we had, the work we were doing. They had part of the value is by bringing in a lot of by bringing in a small group of disparate experiences. They actually knew a lot of the company. And so they actually had their own experiences that they were able to bring in. And as you would imagine, we're still a a we're a big, technical technology based organization, and have a lot of scientists and engineers.
They did they they mapped out what everybody did, what type of things they did, about how much time they spent. They looked at where people had similar engagements with customers, where they had similar technologies through a combination of interviews, and as well as their knowledge base. And so
Avish
know then once you decided to move forward with it, how did you kinda roll that out? Were people resistant to it? Did they were like, oh, this is gonna be great. Or
Alex
So so, again, this a lot of the things we do and, yes, there's some best practices out there that, of course, we follow, but a lot of these things we have I've had experiences. And one of my previous experiences is no matter how brilliant an idea that you have, if you just spring it on people, there are not many that are gonna enjoy it. And you always think your idea is more brilliant than it really is. Mhmm. So we actually in this particular situation, of course, we had typical management reviews, but we actually, as we were progressing the study, we brought in our entire organization and shared with them where we were. Mhmm. We shared we shared with them what what we had studied.
We shared our preliminary ideas. We took feedback, and we said, hey. Before we get to the next step, we will share more. So by the time we had rolled it out, and we did it in a pretty compressed timeline. I think from the start of the study till rolling it out was about three months. Right. So we really did.
We didn't drag it on for a long time. But we by the time we had rolled it out, they all pretty much knew what it was. They shared their biggest concerns already. And,
Avish
real quick. When you say you you you roll you communicated with the entire organization, you mean the entire organization as in the entire group of people you were merging, or you mean, like, the entire larger ExxonMobil organization?
Alex
So we we essentially shared it with the entire 50 people that were directly impacted Mhmm. As well as with the another couple of hundred people that were indirectly impacted.
Avish
Okay. Gotcha. So, again, coming back to what we talked before, communication. Right? Communication. Communicating with everyone. Here's what we learned.
Here's what we're doing. Here's why we're doing it.
Alex
Yeah. But it's not just communication. Right? Communication's important, has a huge impact. Giving people the again, it actually goes back to another theme we talked about. We have more control than we think.
Avish
Mhmm.
Alex
Most people think they have less control than they do. So giving people some sense of control, the ability just to even input Yeah. Ahead of the rollout or even when they're only complaining or sharing their concerns, hearing them out and trying to address them or identifying that that's something you'll address through the way you roll out goes a long, long way. It was this was actually the most transparent I'd ever been in. I've I've been part of or led probably four or five reorgs in my career. This was the first time I went that transparent. But I figured I it was I figured I'd learn if nothing else. Mhmm. But it made the implementation a heck of a lot easier.
You're never gonna get everybody up on board. Sure. But I would say we had a very small number of detractors initially. And we actually had mostly people that once they learned about it, once we rolled it out and, of course, we kept communicating. We communicated as we rolled it out. We communicated not only why we were doing it for the corporation, but why we were doing it for the people, and and had an integrated message of, hey. Here's what's in it for you.
Here's why we think it's important for everyone and for the organization. And we also said, we're gonna listen to you as we go. We're no we know we're not perfect. So as we rolled it out, we had the benefit two benefits associated with that. One is that people were actually willing when they saw things that weren't working to help fix them, not even forcing us to go fix them, but we absolutely knew we were gonna get honest feedback.
Avish
Mhmm.
Alex
And and we have. Over the over the twelve plus months since we've done it. We've run multiple surveys, and we keep getting better. But we also admitted when we rolled it out, we're not gonna be perfect. We did this in three months. We said the value of being per the value of being perfect versus the extra time it would take to get there isn't there. So bear with us, make sure you feedback, and we'll make improvements as we go.
And that's the other piece. It's not just communicating. It's actually making sure that you're doing what you said you'd do. It's having the credibility that we said we'll listen and we'll improve. And not only and so now as we get that feedback, we're sharing very transparently what we're doing to improve and make it better.
Avish
Yeah. That's great. That's that iterative approach. Right? That take a step, see what happens. Yep. Adjust, do it again, versus spending months or years before you take the first step. Alright. Well, that's, no, that's great.
And I got a lot of mental notes there. So, and a lot of people learn there whether you're doing a reorganization, you know, with a 50 people within a large corporation or just a small change.
You got a team of, like, five. Or no all the time, though, that someone the leader gets the leader slash manager gets an idea, and they're like, boom.
This is what we're gonna do now. And I'm guilty of this right back when I ran a new improv group. You know, I'd come in, like, oh, here's what
Alex
we're gonna do now.
Avish
You know, again, kinda like you said in in a different story, like, I was in my, you know, early twenties, mid twenties. You know, now I'd be much more like, here's something I'm thinking of.
What are your thoughts? And how can we make this better and get that Yeah. And get that feedback, get that input.
It's so so obvious in retrospect.
Alex
But that's It is. Yeah. I mean, the things you learn is, yeah, have people feel part of the process instead of being the output of the of whatever the change process is. Right? It's it's it's showing that transparency and credibility that if you're telling them you're gonna do something, do it.
And if you can't do it, admit that you didn't do it. So when we when we learned about things that were broken, we would go out there and I would go out there in in calls and admit, hey. Yeah. We we we didn't see this well.
We'll fix it. Right? And then, of course, the other piece is, for me, it's you can make you can work on things forever to make them better. At some point, and as early as possible, just go do.
Do, learn, make better. And in many cases, you can actually just go back to where you were originally. And if you always have the option to go back to where you started from, in our case, it was probably a little too much of a change to go back. But one of the things I find amazing with people, like, oh, I'm scared to do this.
And I asked them. I'm like, well, if it messes up, can you just go back to where you were yesterday? Yeah. Well, why don't you try? Because the worst case thing is you screw up a little, but you just go back to where you were the day before.
Avish
It is it is amazing how validating I'm fighting. Because literally, in my keynote, I say that. I say that step into uncertainty.
Let go of your plan. See what happens. I'm like, it's not set in stone, though. You can always decide. Hey. I explore this. I didn't like it.
I'm gonna gonna go back. The old plan was better. Let me go back to the old way. Yep. And it's it's so great. I mean, it's it's amazing how you're using it and how you you've applied this, but it's like, yeah, that's, it's so simple, but it's so easy because people get defensive. They get scared.
They're worried about what other people think about them, and they don't wanna take the step. And well, Alex, this was fantastic. We would probably keep talking, but it it's getting late on the East Coast. I don't wanna keep you any longer. This is so, normally, you know, I've had a lot of people on who are, like, speakers or consultants and, you know, they wanna promote something or they have a book. And I, you know, I I don't know if, you know, why you're on here other than because you wanna have a conversation with me, which is great. So but if people wanna connect with you, if you're open to it, you know, any is there anyone particularly looking to connect with or any manner in which, you know, people could reach out to you and be like, oh, I like what you had to say, and I'd like to learn more about them.
Alex
So I am on LinkedIn, and I actually am semi active. And, yeah, the only reason I'm on here is because I love you. So, that's you know, you may wanna edit that out. But,
Avish
I'm on my part of this.
Alex
But, yeah, I'm I'm on LinkedIn if if people wanna connect. I'm I'm always willing to connect. One of the biggest, enjoyments I have is is actually talking from people, outside of ExxonMobil as well. I love the people I work with, but I I learn as much, if not more, from those outside of where I work. So happy to connect with anybody.
Avish
Well, fantastic. I got one more question for you before I finish up. But, yeah, as a reminder, if you know, we'll post the, we'll post a link to your LinkedIn in, in the show notes. I wanna connect with Alex. Reach out to him. Tell him how much you loved his appearance on this podcast. You know, obviously, you know, if you're not a speaker consultant, but you got a lot of great ideas.
So if anyone wants to to chat and learn more, it sounds like you're doing a lot of things right over there. Maybe not all the time. Maybe you forget like the rest of us do, but overall, you got the right approach and the right idea. So, Alex, I'm gonna finish this, interview up with the way I try to finish most of these. Simple questions. So I talk about the idea of saying yes and instead of yes. But one of the reasons I do that is because I honestly believe the world would be a better place if everyone just simply started with the default of yes and when they're approaching life and other people.
So what is one small thing that you believe if everyone just did this one little thing or this one little thing differently, it would make the world a better place? What would you say that would be?
Alex
Mine is, assume positive intent. Mhmm. We tend to always look at the hidden motives of what people do. And half the time, it takes us down a rabbit hole of creating scenarios that don't actually occur. The amount of times I I I I run into people that are like, hey. I wonder why this person asked me this. Are they trying to steal my project, or are they looking to do something else?
Where if you assume positive intent, it it actually creates much better opportunities. It's it's absolutely amazing. It's hard sometimes, but at least in the workplace for me, it it should be easier. Because if you're not working with people you trust that you can assume positive intent with, you're probably at the wrong place.
Avish
Yeah. I love that.
And I kinda go back to one of my favorite quotes, which I started working on an article, couldn't quite figure out the maybe I can come back to it, but it is, never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity or incompetence. It's like, so often we think someone's doing something intel intentionally to hurt us. I was like, no. They just didn't know any better. Or, no.
They were just incompetent. They just messed it up. It's
Alex
I love it. I love it.
Avish
Awesome. Well, Alex, thank you.
This was fantastic. I had a great conversation. Love catching up with you and then learning from you. And in fact, learning things about you personally, I even after thirty years, I didn't know. So that's fantastic.
Alex
Yeah. Thanks, Subisha.
I enjoyed it too. I'll find any excuse to chat with you, so this is as great as any other.
Avish
Awesome. Well, we will do it again.
Alex
Awesome.