In this episode of Yes, And with Avish Parashar, I’m joined by Toni Thomas from Challenger, Gray & Christmas to explore a topic that doesn’t get nearly enough attention: offboarding.
While onboarding gets the red carpet treatment, too often the way people exit an organization is abrupt, impersonal, and damaging — to them and to the company. Toni shares why offboarding is more than collecting a laptop and cutting off email access — and how handling it with empathy and intention leads to better outcomes, less litigation, and a stronger employer brand.
We also dig into what it’s like to be in transition, how individuals can navigate it successfully, and how networking and self-care can shift the experience from isolation to opportunity.
Key Takeaways
Why offboarding should be treated with the same care as onboarding
How the ripple effects of a poorly handled layoff affect morale, productivity, and reputation
The ROI of outplacement support — for both the employee and the company
Common mistakes organizations make during layoffs and how to avoid them
What the “peak-end rule” means for how employees remember their time at your company
Practical advice for individuals in transition: routines, relationships, and reframing
How to network authentically — even when you feel like you have nothing to offer
Why helping others during transition can boost confidence and open new doors
Relevant Links
Connect with Toni Thomas on LinkedIn (mention you heard her on the show and ask her for her Offboarding Checklist)
Learn more about Challenger, Gray & Christmas: https://www.challengergray.com
Unedited Transcript
Avish Parashar
Hello, Toni. Welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Tony Thomas
I'm good. Thank you.
Avish Parashar
Excellent. Well, I'm super happy you're here, because when we first started talking, you really turned out that one of your areas of expertise, not the only, but is this whole concept that, you know, I hadn't really heard of, and and, frankly, I've had some weird thoughts about before. So I wanna dig into that. But before we get into what that topic is and we're gonna talk about it, would you mind for the podcast listeners just giving a quick, like, one minute overview of kinda who you are and what you do?
Tony Thomas
Absolutely. So Tony Thomas, regional director of Challenger Grand Christmas, which is an outplacement firm that helps HR and their departed employees. It's a severance paid, benefit that the company pays for for their departed employees with job coaching, resume writing, and coaching so they are able to, move forward and land in that new role and have support and, move on in their careers into something new. So I'm really passionate about helping both sides. I think it's one of the toughest times in someone's life. So having Challenger as your outplacement partner really it does make a difference, for the both sides, the company's you know, company side and maintaining their culture. And then on the departed employee side, having them move forward.
This they've done nothing wrong other than this it they they're moving on from them, which is hard.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm. Okay. So this is this idea or concept called offboarding. Is that a a term you coined, or is that sort of the industry accepted term for it?
Tony Thomas
The industry. You know? You think about it. There's two parts to a onboarding process, and then they have an offboarding process. So when you're onboarded, you know, it is clear what's gonna happen. Right? They put a lot of preparation, a lot of time into that.
But when you're offboarded, whether it be, you know, voluntary, involuntary, you know, that piece of it is offboarding with really empathy and a plan. And when you offer outplacement along with the offboarding and it's more than just getting your computer back and cutting access. You know? It really is. This is a human being behind, the process. So
Avish Parashar
Mhmm. So you you say it's more than cutting off computer access, but in a lot of companies, I feel like I have definitely heard I was fortunate in that, I was well, guess, technically, I was downsized out of one, but it was all very amicable. But, I've only heard stories of people getting downsized, let go, and literally, like, a a security guard comes to the table. You pack up your things. They walk you to the door. That's you know, we wash our hands of this. So that's that's sort of I mean, I I I'm not in the industry as much as you, but to me, that feels more the norm than the the type of sort of co beneficial relationship that you're talking about.
Tony Thomas
Well, yeah, it doesn't have to be the norm. Right? Meaning, it doesn't. I mean, this is someone's brother, sister, mother, cousin. It's a human being that you know, I've been on-site with offboarding. I've been actually you know, as they as the rift happens and they're they're saying they're being laid off, I'm in a room next door waiting for them to come in to answer questions about the program that their company purchased for them. And a lot of times, they're in shock.
And and on top of that, there's so much shame attached to it, and they just wanna get out of the building. And I get that. It's a lot to process emotionally, but there is this ripple effect that happens from the departing employee to the remaining employees and the stakeholders at the company as well. The ripple effect when it's not done with, best practices in mind, it can really send a ripple effect and some damage, you know, to all those people I just talked about. So having, you know, a process and having, you know, compassion and empathy lead with this and a plan. Right? You have a plan for them.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Tony Thomas
You know? We are separating, but we took care of you.
Avish Parashar
And I I mean, I obviously am biased, and I totally agree with you. But let's talk about that ripple effect a little bit because, I I am of the I agree with you in all the things in the human side. Like, oh, it's a person. They have feelings. They have relationship. They have a life. But sadly, whether it's cynical or not, so many decisions in the business level at the leadership level are made sort of for better for lack of better from independent of the the human cost, I guess.
You know, it's like, yeah. It sucks for them, but yeah. Woah. Look at the numbers. But with this ripple effect, it's not just a this is the right thing to do from a humanity standpoint. There's there's I mean, you could drill down to a cost even. So could you talk a little more about what some of those ripple effects are and how they impact the organization?
Tony Thomas
Yeah. So, you know, the ripple effects is your people are still your people. So when you lay someone off and there's not that best practice involved in offering, you know, decent severance, outplacement, you know, all those extra things that you can, if you can offer offer and why that the ripple effects matters is because they're gonna be your billboard on the way out. A year from now, they might be working for as a vendor and with your company, and they're like, nope. We're not doing business with them. I had a not a I had a horrible experience. I mean, it really can affect the business, not just at that moment, but in the future. Right? I always say what I'm in is risk management.
You're managing the risk for the company and the individual. So, you know, the individual feels two things. They're gonna feel obviously, most people end up feeling their sadness and shock, but they're either gonna say, you know what? I don't like what happened, but they took care of me, or they did me dirty. And doing someone dirty, meaning that they did not it was just an exit.
I got my box. They're gonna ship my stuff. I didn't get to say my goodbyes. I didn't get a wrap up email to my coworkers. I didn't get a chance to to, you know, to say those things. So that leaves someone feeling very angry down the road because they weren't able to get those messages out. And the now the remaining employees, you know, we were walking partners.
Now we're not. And now I'm worried. Should I you know, my morale, I'm gonna get more work usually loaded on me. And now should I get my resume together? The people staying also are so concerned because now they have a higher workload. Their productivity usually goes down the tank because there's so many emotions they're trying to process.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Tony Thomas
And they just lost their their close friend that they've known for the past how many years. You know?
Avish Parashar
It's it's funny. This is sort of related, but just top of my mind is I don't know if you're a radio listener, but here in, in Philadelphia, the number one morning show is a show called Preston and Steve, and it's, it's been around I used to I stopped listening. I'm just morning routine blah blah blah, but I listened for a long time, loved it. My my good friend is on there a lot. And it was this team of, like, six people, and one of them was a woman named Kathy. And she was part of the team from the very beginning. And just recently in the news came out this, like, she was just suddenly let go.
And, you know, they were very sad in talking about it, but reading the social media commentary on there, I mean, people are just number one, they're lambasting the other hosts, which they shouldn't do because it wasn't the host decision, but that's a perception issue, right, regardless of why you do it. But people really are bashing the parent company because they're like, no. This is the numbers decision. I can't believe it did it. So the rep like you said, the reputation and the word-of-mouth is just just terrible for them.
Tony Thomas
Yeah. Because it I mean, I saw a little bit this in the news, and I I do try to follow those those those subjects when they come up. I think when you give someone a proper farewell
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Tony Thomas
And you're able to give someone, like, you know, we took care of her. We're gonna I don't know if they offered out placement. It's not a, you know, that Well,
Avish Parashar
it didn't sound like it because I remember reading that in the interview, she said wherever I end up. So it sounds like they didn't really make sure she landed on her feet. They're just like, well, you'll
Tony Thomas
be fine. What and don't you like, when all that is cut off and your access is cut off, you return the computer, that individual is at home. And who's helping them navigate this? And a lot of times, if they don't have outplacement, they're by themselves trying to figure it out. And, I mean, I'm not a resume writer. I would need a resume writer to write the resume. That's what we do.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Tony Thomas
I would need help in my branding. That's what we do. All those things that would need help in interviewing. You know? You need help on, you know, making sure when you're ready for the interview, what's your, you know, thirty second commercial about yourself, what are you doing for your time that, you know, since you've been, in between this transition. There's a lot of moving parts to being in transition, and having a company, a team be by your side is so important. Because if you don't, you're by yourself, and it's very lonely.
And it become I just had a call with an HR leader, doesn't have any support. She didn't get out placement, and she's now wondering, you know, I gotta get to work part time somewhere because I need to bring some money in, and I'm feeling really discouraged. And then my confidence is gone. My confidence is gone.
Avish Parashar
Well, it's funny. You think about sometimes you think about these stories at, you know, at my stage in life, most of the people I know are married, you know, generally, not always, you know, both spouses working. So you think about, wow, one person gets laid off, and it sucks, and now we gotta tighten our belts and whatnot. But, like, in your situation, if you are the the breadwinner in your family or if you're you're alone, you know, you're solo, like, it's not just, this sucks. It's like, wow. Just getting food on the table and paying the mortgage becomes a huge stress factor.
Tony Thomas
It does. And the longer it typically goes, they start talking about days when they've been laid off, then they go into weeks, and now they're into months. And the longer it goes, there's a stickiness. There's a stickiness for them. There's this heaviness for them, and they get frustrated. And they they're you know, a lot of times, they they it's why you need a coach. You need someone to help you.
You need you need someone to be that sounding board to, you know, when you do get the interview, you nail it. And when you're networking, you're really being very specific in how people can help you, really knowing your ask and being prepared. So, not an easy time. And what looks out there right now in the market is with the tariffs and, different things that are going on our supply chain. You know, there's a lot of talented people out there, and I think there's shame attached to what happened.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Tony Thomas
Sometimes people feel it's something that they did, and a lot of times it's not. Yeah. It's not what they did. It's the company.
Avish Parashar
Right? The numbers.
Sometimes it's a down year, and sometimes it's just, you know, some the the numbers people are like, oh, we could increase our profits by, you know, 5% if we remove this position. And then that yeah. But, like, to your point, it's not, it is not their fault. And, you know, you you kinda went through a bunch of things there, and I wanted to follow-up on a number of them. So so first, there well, let me ask this question. This is almost a little little promo. You know, I know you're with Challenger Grey, and this is what you do.
One of the services you offer for companies is helping with with offboarding. That's from the company side. Is there is this something you or the company offer for the individual? Let's say, like you said, that HR leaders, like, we don't offer offboarding or severance or anything like that. Is there a service? Is there something you offer? Is there a service for people who want need help with that?
Tony Thomas
So we only work we only can work with companies that they're the ones that buy our services. But I do, you know, recommend, if you've been, you know, in a layoff. And, I do I do think having a a career coach, there's, you know, there's a lot of them out there. Mhmm. Interviewing them, asking for recommendations is definitely important.
It's you know, and if you're in HR and you've been laid off, ask for outplacement. Right? Like
Avish Parashar
Yep. You
Tony Thomas
know, I have a lot of HR leaders that will go and say, is it possible? I'd like to use Challenger.
Here's the programs. Can I get you know, I'd like to get a program? I'm you know, really feel it's gonna be beneficial. And by the way, when they land and they're off unemployment, the company saves money. You know? By offering out placement, you're less likely to get litigated. Like, there's a lot of really good things, not only just for the person, but for the company, like, when you do the right thing.
So if you are part of a a layoff and, you haven't, you know, had, you know, the exposure of having out placement paid for. I definitely think in talking and interviewing, career transition coaches is and hiring one yourself. I mean, it it the days can get crazy, and having an accountability partner, I think, is really key.
Avish Parashar
Well, let's talk about about the organization. Here's a question that's been on my mind for for a while. Is and I know you connect a lot with HR professionals and it's kind of your your entry point. That's who you deal with mostly with working. But that's you if your business is like mine, that's usually not the person with the final say. So to me, it feels like, a real hard sell because, obviously, the HR person, they care about the human factor. They see the benefit.
But sometimes you go higher up, there's a person. If they're not already on board convincing them to put all this money in an employer letting go, like, well, what's the ROI? So how do you make that sale? How do you convince that leader of the ROI?
Tony Thomas
Yeah. You know?
So, typically, HR is the one that will help, influence this. And sometimes it's their decision. Right? Sometimes it's the CFO and the CEO, and sometimes it's all three working together.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Tony Thomas
You know, I feel that we're partners, on this. And when you come with a thought in mind about what will this accomplish, so it's gonna accomplish, obviously, helping not get to get litigated because litigation can be very costly. You know, if you let someone go and they end up getting an attorney and, you know, it can be very costly. So from the litigation side, that's one piece.
Avish Parashar
Well, let me pause right there and just ask a quick question about that. So you're reducing litigation. You think the litigation would be reduced because the employee would be, like, less vindictive, and they'd be like, oh, they helped me. They didn't just leave me out in the cold. And then
Tony Thomas
company offered a program to help them.
Avish Parashar
Got it. Okay.
Tony Thomas
Right? Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So and then the the second is that that that branding, and that branding piece is, you know, future branding and current state branding. So when you offer outplacement and you took care of my people, the people I worked with Mhmm.
They're they're texting. How what do they do for you? What do they give you? Are you go you know? And then they talk to us. We enroll them in the program. They have their resume redone.
They're, you know, being coached on how to network. They're getting their LinkedIn refreshed. They have they're all the support, unlimited support with coaches and putting themselves, you know, planning it out their strategy, you know, and having that, they're like, oh, they really were taken care of, and then they see they landed. And I'm like, well, that you know, working with us, Challenger, typically, the the the ratio of landings is under three months, using our services. Yeah. So, again, when you have the the help, you have the coaches, you there you you have limited access. You have we have a technology tool called Challenger Essential, which is such a cool tool that brings thank you notes and cover letters.
There is so much administration work to be done when you're looking for a job Mhmm. That part of our tool does many different things, but that's some of the things it can do to save time. And then when you land, you're off the unemployment. You're off there any medical benefits you might have been on.
So it's really the ROI. I love talking about ROI. The ROI is there. Right? And I usually, go over those results with my HR leaders after once a program has been kicked off and people are enrolling and where here's I have a report I go through every six months. I can show them where people have landed, and I explain, you know, who engaged, who didn't. Mhmm. It's important data points because there is an ROI to this.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And so that's a like, almost a tangible ROI, and then there's the intangible ROI of, like you said, the the reputation because a person lands. Number one, they're gonna be I think you called it, at some point, an ambassador. Right? They become Mhmm. You You know, for whether someone's looking for a job or someone's looking to do business or I mean, there's always that that very nice situation where that person lands with a supplier or a potential customer. And all of a sudden, if you've got a good relationship, it can lead to business or discounts or better relationship.
And and if not, it can, like, be, like, losing business even.
Tony Thomas
Absolutely. And I've seen that unfold live. I have definitely seen it unfold. It's like having a breakup, and it didn't go well.
Avish Parashar
Well, it's true. And these are things that people forget about. It was like, oh, it's never gonna happen, but it it does. Especially when you think about, depending on the position, some industries are so, like, I don't know what the word is, but insular or small. Like, if you leave one place, there's a number of places you land at, and it's very possible you're gonna wanna do business with those that company and if there's people are there. And how does this all so aside, I've never had to use because I've now I haven't worked a whole lot for other people. But, do you see any impact with, like, Glassdoor and, people leaving and stuff like that?
Tony Thomas
Yes. Oh, Glassdoor.
We have, a quote out there about, Taylor, Meadows, who's on Glassdoor. I believe that's his name. I'll have to double check that. But it we have it, on one of our, flyers, but it really talked about, you know, why offboarding is more important than onboarding because, what people are gonna write on Glassdoor and how that you made them feel Mhmm.
Really does impact. And then the current employees that are staying feel that they know those were taken care of. They'll take care of me too
Avish Parashar
Right.
Tony Thomas
If I should happen to exit. Right? Because no one there's always that shakiness. Once the the first wave happens of a layoff, and then people are wondering, am I safe? Will they take care of me? You know? Then they start asking their friends.
They see two weeks in, three weeks in, and, oh, they're they already have their resume done. Oh, their LinkedIn profile looks great. Like, they now feel better because they know that their friend was taken care of. And then when they land, they're less worried because they were taken care of.
Avish Parashar
Right. So the huge weight off their mind, they can just focus on their work, which is productivity. And and, you know, the the the Gallup poll, which, you know, we as speakers love the Gallup because they come out with these great yo. But, I spoke to an HR group in April, and literally that morning, I had an email from from Gallup about, like, the latest, you know, employee engagement. And it's, like, 69% of the workforce is disengaged, and 19% of that is, actively disengaged. So these are the people who are, like, looking. And and I can only imagine that, like, if I was at a company and someone was laid off out of nowhere, kicked to the curb, not help.
Like, I could see me feeling disengaged, and I could also see me starting to look, like, preemptively, like, oh, if they did that to Yeah. To so and so, like, I should get out of here before they do it to me.
Tony Thomas
It's natural. Right? So you think that's a natural feeling to feel that?
Avish Parashar
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I'm kinda lazy, so I probably would talk a thing about doing it, but I feel a lot of people are much more proactive and actually and actually do it, which, you know, brings us an idea of kind of how people leave. And you you mentioned this phrase that, you know, last impressions matter more than first. And then you, I was going through some of your material, and you had mentioned ideas I think I'd seen before. And as a speaker, I've heard this, but I never really thought about it in terms of employment and and offboarding. But the peak end rule, could you kinda explain what that is and kinda how that relates to to to offboarding?
Tony Thomas
Definitely. The peak end rule is really interesting about how our brains work. They'll remember the highest moment and the lowest moment. So the peak end of, like, when it when it was the greatest and when it was the worst. Mhmm. So that's what people's brains tend to remember. So they're gonna remember a great moment, and they're gonna go right to when when what went bad.
And they'll I had my transitions group today, and someone was speaking at it. And she named the exact day, exact time her layoff happened six months ago. It was still it's that moment is in her brain because it was a really, you know, highest and lowest moment of her life. So it's what our brains tend to go to. It's just natural.
Avish Parashar
The third thing I add to that is the the recency bias, which is our brains also remember the most recent experience we had with something. And if your most recent experience is being let go, which for most people who aren't don't have an off boarding program, it's not a happy memory. So you're gonna leave in most of your memories and and associations are gonna be negative around the organization.
Tony Thomas
And and then when you start to interview, how will that sound when you're interviewing? Like, you having that story tightened up and really modified so they're you know, it's like asking when you're dating about, like, oh, how how you know, you broke up. How long ago was you know, you're trying to figure out, does a person heal from it? You know, you're trying to figure this out in a dating scene. Same thing when you're hiring you know, you're trying to see that they work through their issues. Where are they with it? You know?
And having a coach to help you talk about that is gonna be really important.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. Absolutely. And what I wanna talk about is some, you mentioned is you were just talking about your HR group, your transition group. So I wanna I'm gonna shift a little bit, because before we talk about the benefits of offboarding. And I know we you know, I have a lot of HR audiences, so hopefully there's a bunch of HR people listening and kinda maybe haven't thought of this before. And, if this is something you'd like to explore more, we're gonna have Toni's contact info in the notes. So reach out to her and then see how and, you know, I I assume before I get into my other question, since I've shifted into mini promo mode here, I assume, especially for smaller businesses, that their first thought about this is gonna be like, oh, we can't afford that.
And I'm sure everything is different, but is that true? Is it, like, even small small for a smaller midsize, like, we've only got a hundred employees. Like, we can't afford this.
Tony Thomas
It's it's not something we can look into. You know, no one ever comes to me with a big budget, typically. Like, let's be clear. Mhmm. So, we do have, you know, products that are definitely affordable. They might be more virtual, but nothing is, like, oh, you know, done to a a video, and you're gonna be watching content video, and they're on their own. These are with a live human being, a coach.
It might be virtual through Zoom, but they they will have access and get support. So there's programs that are, you know, at that level. And then we, of course, we have up to c suite programs, which, you know, are a lot more extensive and customized. So I think when you look at, the cost of and we only invoice for those that engage in the program. So 20%, typically, when you are offering outplacement, 20% will not engage. So I think it's important to know, am I gonna be invoiced for everybody, and what does that look like? So not why they don't?
They want nothing to do with the company. They found a job. They might, you know, be retiring, and even though we can help with retirement, they they don't want they don't want any help. They they literally don't want any help. So we do not invoice for them. Only if they need a coach and get a new resume is when my company will invoice.
So that does matter.
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Tony Thomas
You're not paying for for everyone. Right? It's
Avish Parashar
not just like a retainer where just they keep paying this money and never actually use a service. It's pretty much only paying for when it's used, which is
Tony Thomas
Exactly. And then I go through the report to go through everyone six to eight months out, you know, to see, you know, the ROI of it. You landed and and all that is important. I I'd wanna know how many money was spent. Those details are are definitely, key factors on moving forward, right, with our
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Tony Thomas
You know, if we have another impact in the next year or so.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And that and they can kinda decide how it's working and, fine.
So that's great. And so if you are an HR leader or executive listening to this and you're like, oh, I wanna explore more, definitely reach out to Tony, find out more. So now I wanna shift a little bit from the organizational side to the individual side, which I hadn't really planned on doing, but, you know, you can roll with it here. It's, we, well, you mentioned this transition group, and this is one of the ways one of the first ways we met as we talked, and then you had me come and present for your so you actually run a breakfast meeting usually. Right? Yeah. For people, mostly HR leaders in transition, which is a great service, by the way, just kinda being very helpful.
And so what are what are you seeing kind of, like, for a person? Let's just say this individual listening and they're either going through it. You know, they've been laid off or they're out of work right now. Or what do you find are the kinda the differentiators between the people that sort of deal with that well or get through it okay and the ones who really struggle in that period of transition?
Tony Thomas
You know, I think it it's definitely is different for everybody. I think meaning, like, we're all at different points whether, you know, they're the sole provider or maybe they have I've met some people that they have the luxury of not being worried because they don't they're gonna wanna do their next chapter, but money and finances aren't the biggest stress for them because that's just the way their life is set up. So I think but part of it also too is ego. So ego, you know, our ego says sometimes our our our confidence is based on, you know, our title and how much we bring in. And for a lot of people, when the longer you're in transition, that stickiness comes in, your confidence goes, and then you're feeling like you're showing up and you're frustrated before the even hello goes out where I meet them, you know, and I'm checking in because I know that they they're they're they feel they hit the wall. I don't know if you've ever ran a marathon. I've only run one, but the wall is a real thing. Mhmm. And for those in transition, they hit some walls. You know?
It feels it can be isolated. It feels like, well, so and so got hired.
What's wrong with me? Why didn't I get hired? And there's a lot of comparisons. Not that you're not happy for somebody because you are, but there's also, like, what's wrong with me? Why didn't I get chosen? So I think that's a big piece as well. And, you know, the other piece is, you know, you're doing all the right things. You're networking. You're applying.
And then, you know, some people think it's easier than it's gonna be. Looking for a job is a job. Mhmm. And it's like business development in a way. Right? Because you're doing you're doing networking. You're sending emails.
You're being thoughtful on your companies you're interested in. You're asking how I can help you. This isn't like a one way of I just need help. The best networkers, the best people and I said that there was the call right before you. I said to her, are you asking that question to people you're not working with? How you can help them? Because the more you are of service to someone else, the better you're gonna feel.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And I love that. And this obviously, I'm biased because it's this is, like, the ultimate, like, yes and, yes but type approach. It's like the Right. Yes but you what you can do for me versus yes and. What can I what can I do for you?
So how would you respond? And maybe you don't have an answer. I'm putting you on the spot. To a person who's like, well, like, I'm in transition. I don't have a job. I can't offer anything to anyone. Right? I I would feel like that's gonna be a mindset some people have when they're meeting new people.
Now I know you're shaking your head and you can't see if you're just listening. Like, you disagree with me, but you disagree with the sentiment. Do you disagree that people have that feeling?
Like, well, I'm like
Tony Thomas
Yes. They have that feeling, and it's the perspective of what you actually can do because you have a network.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Tony Thomas
You know people. You can introduce people. So you say to someone, you know, I don't know if there's anything before the call wraps up. Is there anything I can do for you personally or professionally? Are you you know? I had a nature leader, meet with someone that she wanted to meet this one company. I gave her the introduction. They met.
And the woman was like, well, I'm actually looking for a mentor because she was, more senior. Would you be open to mentoring me? Isn't that interesting that she's trying to help her within the organization and other opportunities?
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Tony Thomas
And then the person in transition is able to help as well. And they have now monthly, you know, meetings where they connect and they they they talk about she mentors her. So everyone has a network, whether it's from their internal company, it could be from their kids or friends. We all have a networking can happen anywhere. Pickleball court, can happen at the local pub. You know? It doesn't have to be so traditional on LinkedIn and so formal, like, is your company hiring?
That's to me is not networking. Networking is getting to know the person.
How can I help you? Tell me exactly, like, if there's companies or introductions I can do. Once I get to know, like, and trust you
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Tony Thomas
I most likely may open my best network to you. If I don't get to know, like, and trust you, and you show up late, your camera's not on, you're not organized, you never even look to see what I did. How can I put you under my best network? So networking is really like a job interview.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And what I look at
Tony Thomas
like a job interview.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And it's interesting. It's it's funny. A quick note is, one of my good friends, another speaker, I I may have mentioned him to you, Michael Goldberg. His whole topic is do you know Michael? Or
Tony Thomas
I know. I we haven't met, but I know him.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. So and I I think when I spoke for your group, I think I wrote his book. I think I pointed him out. But his definition and he talks on networking. He's, like, one of the biggest networking speakers in the world, and his definition is very similar to what you said. He's like, it's just meeting and and connecting with people to find out how you can help them. Like, that's what networking is.
And it's such a nice, simple, like, outward focusing, of definition. And as someone I think we've talked about this. I'm much more introverted and shy. Like, I don't like, I find it uncomfortable, and I'm trying to get better about it. But one of the things I found is from the the selfish standpoint is, yes, I'm always trying to think about how we can help the other person. But what I've tried to do is instead of putting the pressure on myself of, like, alright. Can this turn into business?
Can I one, how can I help them help? The other thing I find is I just want to find people I like to talk to irrespective of the business. So, you know, if I connect with someone and we start talking about, it's happened to me once at a conference I was speaking at and at, like, the networking happy hour, which usually I hate, I just ended up, by chance, bringing up something that I like fantasy novels. And the guy was talking, and we just talked for, like, twenty minutes about fantasy novels. And it didn't turn into business, but, you know, we it almost did. Like, he had a potential. Now even if it didn't though so I for me, the the yes and I saw myself is, like, look.
Try to help them, and don't worry so much about who they can connect you and can they hire you. Just like, do you enjoy talking to them and then and talk to them again? Like, set up a time to to connect again and so on.
Tony Thomas
Exactly. Well, that's the relationship. You now grew from transactional where it's like, well, I need your help. I mean, you know, who can they introduce me to that is gonna be hiring that can you know? It's it's about getting to know the person. Mhmm. This is a person.
And then every conversation's gonna be a 10 out of 10. I've had some calls last seven minutes because it just was like we didn't really have much together. There was no there's no, like, chemistry.
There was no
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And it is it is very much like dating. It's like you you meet a bunch of people, and some you have a nice experience with, but you're never gonna really talk to again. Others, you hit it off, and maybe someone goes somewhere. And others are, like, in five minutes, you're like, alright. This is not, you know, what I thought it was gonna be. And and that's and I think, and I think to your point about, like, when you're in transition and and, you've used the term a couple times, like, the stickiness.
It's like every conversation you have that doesn't turn into a home run just feels like a failure as opposed to, like, just part of the process. So do you have any kind of tips for managing that? Because I think the emotion's a huge piece of it when we're in transition.
Tony Thomas
It is. I totally I say this all the time.
Never so high, never so low. Just let it be. Like, you get tied up on this conversation's gonna go great. This person's so so senior, and you have so much expectation. And then they don't show up for the call or they only give you twelve minutes, and you're like, oh, I had such hope for this one. Mhmm. Versus going in, they love it.
It is what it is. Doing your research, doing your homework, right, being prepared before the call so you come really thoughtful and you have your questions you wanna ask, and then not be attached to the outcome. Like and whatever you promise them, you make sure you follow through. Oh, yeah. Make sure you follow through when you do a thank you note. Thanking them for their time. You know?
If the conversation's going really well, hey. Why don't we schedule time? You know, maybe in eight weeks, we can just do a fifteen minute call to check-in. Schedule that way you have them on the on the phone or on the on the Zoom or the Teams. Like Mhmm. You like someone when there was a connection, like, get another one because they you might be hiring them in two years. Like, you don't know.
Like, you're building your network, and it isn't a one time conversation. That's not networking. Now it is networking when you've realized they may not be your person. Other people I've had clients come to me through my network. My my network didn't necessarily need me, but their friend in HR did have a layoff, and they want they said you gotta talk to Tony. And that's how I've gotten business by being referred in. No differently when you're looking for a job.
You're being referred in. You get bubbled up. Mhmm. You, you know, may hear somebody before anything goes live. You're building a connection, a common thread, you're having an interest in somebody. This is you're you're building that relationship. It's it's very clear.
And, you know, if there's no relationship, that's okay. You're not and not everyone's gonna be your your I knew from the first five minutes of talking to you when I met you over a year and a half ago. I liked you, and I'm like, I want him on my network.
Avish Parashar
Well, thank you. I'm all the same way, which is why we continue to talk.
Tony Thomas
Correct. So, you know, if someone says, well, what did you think? What do you think I'm gonna say?
10 out of 10. Great guy. We I bought his book for everybody. Great message. It was so great seeing my transition folks laugh. Because a lot of times, I'm seeing heaviness and sadness and fear. So you brought in something.
I could see you adding value to a company that needs leadership training or bringing that in. I mean, I was, like, watching, and I was like, wow. When their heads were going back, they were stomping their hands.
Like, very engaging. Right? So I'm just gonna give you a shameless plug now.
Avish Parashar
Well, I appreciate that. That's what I'm
Tony Thomas
gonna get. Yeah. I mean, it was I was like, I won't forget that day. Again, it's a high moment. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Well, that's yeah. That's the thing with humor and laugh. You try to give them the peak so they make some message memorable.
So, so thank you for that. I really appreciate it. I'm glad, you know, everyone I was happy to help. Like I said, they're transition people. I was happy to tell because I haven't been there per se, but I've been very similar places of, like, with my business, you know, just it's just a down, you know, down period. And I had the exact same feelings you're having, but from a from a solopreneur standpoint of, like, you know, the all those leads you think are gonna convert, and they all don't. And then you're looking at your calendar's empty, and then you look on social media and all these other people like, oh, I just spoke to this group.
It's it's that same kind of feeling. So, you know, helping helping out with that is in a happy I was very happy to do it. So, alright. Great. So I'm trying to think here. And then we're kinda coming up towards the end of our time, and I did wanna, I'm gonna ask you one kinda final question before we wrap up. But, I have one question about the transition people, which I'm sort of forgetting for the moment because I got very distracted by all the the other things you were gonna say.
Oh, I was it was more of a comment, more of a thought I had for my own life. I look back on my life fifteen years ago, when I was kinda first starting out in business, and I didn't have kids. I wasn't even married. I wasn't dating yet. And I think back at to the amount of free time I had and how much I squandered it mostly because I was feeling emotionally down because my business was new and not successful, and I was single and not happy about it. So instead of being like, oh my god. I have sixteen hours of waking time a day to do absolutely anything I want.
No boss, no job, no girlfriend, no kids. And I just, like, watch TV and surf the Internet just because I felt emotionally down. Now it's different, and some of the transition people will have, you know, family things. But, like, how is there a way to kinda remind people to make the most of that time? Like, you have all this time, and there's gonna be a point in your life where you are so busy with work and life that you look back on that transition a couple of months and being like, oh, I should have really taken advantage of that.
Tony Thomas
Yeah. And usually what happens when they get the offer and they accept and then they have two or three weeks, sometimes a month before they start, then they're like they're, you know, they're pushing everything in to clean that closet out, to get that room painted because now they feel they can't because the heaviness is off. Right? Mhmm. Heaviness is off my shoulders because I I'm I'm landing. I'm I'm no longer gonna be in transition. So now I'm gonna get done some of those projects.
I do believe the most important thing to really do when you are in transition is keep to a schedule. So the night before, what's your next day look like? You know, weird conversations. If you don't have because the things it's like the ocean. The tide goes out. The tide goes in. Like, it so things open up, and you have all these interviews.
And then in two weeks, they're all gone because Mhmm. They either filled it, they'll put it on hold, or you you weren't the candidate. So then you gotta go in. You gotta hunt new no different than business development. Right? So you gotta get back out and have these new conversations. So keeping that evolution and feeding it and keeping to a schedule and truly having, like, your people.
Like, my my transition folks, man, they text me. They call me. They schedule time together. I'm there to help support them, but I'm not the only one. They have other people in their life that are their their tribe. You know? Their their their board of directors, whatever you wanna call it, they are there for them. Yeah. It's And that they're gonna support you.
They're gonna believe in you. So when you're down, typically, we're both not gonna be down on the same day.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. It's funny.
It's, it's just one thing I learned in improv comedy, which I talk about in some of my programs, but not as much. And I actually think it's arguably the most important thing. It just doesn't quite fit in to the program as well and what the client wants. But I have this phrase I use called emotion drives content, which is how you feel is gonna determine what you think, which then determines what you do and say. And I think that's the secret sauce. And to your point, like, when we're feeling down, when we have that stickiness, it's so important. Like, the schedule, the routine helps us feel less down.
The the support, the people we can reach out to, whether it's a former relationship through a a challenge or great thing or just through your transition group or through friends, colleagues. And I think we forget that when we feel down. It's like you get so I would encourage kinda, like, to your point, like, anything you need to do to rejuvenate, to connect, to feel better, because I think when we feel down, we feel it's, an indulgence, like, we don't deserve it. That kinda comes back to the ego
Tony Thomas
thing. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
But it's the thing that's gonna kinda get you back up and going.
Tony Thomas
Self care. Self care is number one. Mhmm. Go for a walk. Schedule the walk.
Literally schedule it. Put it on, like, I I gotta go for a walk. You know, walk for half an hour, twenty minutes. You're not gonna miss out on a job. I can tell you that.
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Tony Thomas
Like, running yourself in that self care and then having the right people around you. And it you're you're it's right. I mean, you you will output what you think. So movement is just huge when you're in transition. Because a lot of times, they're physically stuck. They feel like nobody wants them. They've applied.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm. They they're Right? They're, like, stuck in the house all day. They don't leave the
Tony Thomas
house because they're just Yes. Yes. So it's how how to get unstuck. How to get unstuck in a really in a time that you know, my I was in third grade when my dad was laid off, and I didn't understand it. I was like, why are you doing home so early? It's 8AM. You should be at work.
And he said those words to me. I was laid off. I'm like, I don't know what that means.
Like, you're not going back? Like, why do you look so sad? Like, the layoff just doesn't happen to the individual. That's that ripple effect we started with.
Happens to the family. It happens to the, you know, the the employees that are staying. It happens to the stakeholder. It happens to everybody that was involved with this person that they're now, like you know, this was someone's father. This was someone's husband. This Yeah.
That's Definitely yeah.
Avish Parashar
Clearly, like you said, you have a passion for this, and it's very clear. And I guess that's one of the places it stems from.
So it's, Mhmm. It's great to see. So, kinda, you said we we've circled back. And what I love about the, you know, I think the the organizations that do believe in offboarding and working with a company like yours or at least trying to do the best they can do right by their people, to me, that's like a yes and organization. Right? They're just like, let's build a yes and culture. Let's try to help people even on their way out. So for again, going back to people listening, HR leaders, executives, anyone who is interested in learning more about you, and Challenger Grey and how they can maybe start adding offboarding, what is the and we'll put it in the show notes, but what's the best way for people to connect with you?
Tony Thomas
By email or phone. Happy to, you know, share a checklist with them that we put together at Challenger as well. I can share that. What is that checklist?
It's for offboarding. It's a check list for offboarding. If they have an offboarding, coming up and they're like, it's a checklist that Challenger created, so I can share that with them. Mhmm. Again, connecting. Even if there isn't something going on, it's good to meet new people.
Avish Parashar
Okay. Yeah. And I believe last last time we talked, you were, I'm like, oh, who I kinda had that question you asked. Like, who can I connect you with? And your basic response is just just cool HR people. Like, it's just that's all I wanna do. It's just wanna meet cool HR people.
And so, yeah, if you're a cool HR person, also just, you know, connect with connect with Tony. Fantastic. Well, we're gonna wrap up here. I do wanna ask you one more question. I I Okay. Try to end all of my podcast interviews this way. I talk about the idea of saying yes and instead of yes but because I have an honest belief that if everyone started with a default mindset of yes and, it would just make the world a better place.
We do better connectors, more positive, more collaborative. So what's a what's one small thing that you believe if everyone did better, it would make the world a better place?
Tony Thomas
I believe if everyone is open to meeting new people. You don't know what battle that they're fighting and how you can make a difference. It doesn't have to it and it could be small act of kindness that you did for them. Mhmm. Right? It doesn't have to be necessarily, you know, big and bold. It these subtle things you can do for for each other and these act of kindness is truly usually free.
So I think if we all show up each other, meet new people, get to know each other, make the world a better place.
Avish Parashar
I love it. Well, that is great and a great note to end on.
So, Tony, thank you, so much. This was fantastic. And if you're listening, be sure to check out Tony and Challenger Gray, and learn more about what they do. It can really make a huge difference. Thanks, Tony.
Tony Thomas
Thank you.