In this episode, I chat with Sarah Ohanesian, a productivity expert and the founder of SO Productive. Sarah dives into the concept of purpose-driven productivity, helping us rethink how we manage our time and energy in both our personal and professional lives. She also shares her work around neurodiversity, a topic that’s been gaining much-needed attention in the workplace. Whether you're leading a team or trying to figure out your own productivity system, this episode has some powerful takeaways about working in alignment with your brain’s unique wiring.
Key Takeaways
Purpose-Driven Productivity: It’s not just about checking off tasks; it’s about doing the work that has the most impact for you and your team.
Neurodiversity in Teams: Embracing different brain types on your team can be a game-changer in creativity and productivity.
Creating Space for Magic: Leave white space in your calendar for unexpected opportunities and creative breakthroughs.
Overcoming Rigidity: Productivity isn’t one-size-fits-all—design a system that works for you and be flexible with it.
Balancing Short-Term vs Long-Term Tasks: Understanding your “why” helps you prioritize long-term goals even when short-term tasks demand your attention.
Relevant Links
Unedited Transcript
Avish Parashar
Hello, Sarah, and welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Sarah Ohanesian
Great. How are you doing?
Avish Parashar
I'm doing, I'm doing fantastic. And I get to talk to you, so my day gets even better.
Sarah Ohanesian
Love that.
Avish Parashar
So, Sarah, for those who don't know, you and I have known each other for a few years now, not super long, but for a year or two, probably about two years now through the, speakers association. Mhmm. And we've gotten to know each other. And I wanna reach you on the podcast because, you know, you've got this cool topic and you've got a cool kind of side topic that I'm interested in as well and that's very mysterious right now. I know, but we're gonna get to all that. So to remove some of the mystery for people who don't know you, can you just start with, like, the sort of one minute overview of kind of who you are and and kind of work you do?
Sarah Ohanesian
Mhmm. Yeah. So my my main topic, to to let that get out of the bag, is productivity. So all around productivity, time management, how can we do the most impactful work of our lives in the moment that we're in, in the season that we're in so that we can do that and then still have time to rest, relax, you know, recharge, be with the people that you love. So for me, working in the productivity space is all about helping to fight that burnout epidemic that we're all facing. So that's topic number one. Topic number two is productivity adjacent.
But what I was finding in my work with my business partner, Jeff Gibbard, was our brains are just very different. And the more we started talking about that and thinking about that, this topic of neurodiversity came to light. And so that's the second topic. Productivity, communication, culture, like working on teams, but all with that through line of neurodiversity. We have different brains on our teams, and how can we harness that power to really have the most impactful teams that we can have?
Avish Parashar
Okay. And I'm gonna wanna get into that in a little bit, because my guess, and I don't know for sure, that my brain is probably a little bit wired more like Jeff's than yours. So, you know, every so often, I like to use these podcast interviews as, you know, personal free one on one coaching.
So I'm You got it. You're the host. You can
Sarah Ohanesian
do whatever you want.
Avish Parashar
Exactly. I kinda snooker you onto here and I'm like, hey, how can you help me?
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. Asking for a friend. Right?
Avish Parashar
Yeah. Exactly. I have this friend, who does improv comp. So let's start though with kind of your main umbrella topic of productivity. And, I was researching some of your your stuff and your content, and I wrote down a bunch of little phrases and sayings that kind of ding the bell in my mind that I want to get your kinda dig deeper with you on.
So the first is right there on your website. You talk about productivity, but you call it purpose driven productivity. Mhmm. And for a lot of people, productivity is just how can I get through my task list faster, my to do list faster?
Sarah Ohanesian
Right.
Avish Parashar
So when you're talking about productivity and purpose driven productivity, what do you mean or what is your approach to it?
Sarah Ohanesian
Right. Well, to me, it's all about impact. So and and earlier, I said doing the most important work of your life, which can sound a little bit like a cliche. Mhmm. But what I mean by that is what is the work that matters most to you today? What is the most impactful impactful thing for you personally, for the business that you work in, for your own business?
Avish Parashar
What are
Sarah Ohanesian
those things that matter most? And that's really purpose driven. You know, what is that thing? And then the second question is, why are we doing it? And so often, I I was just doing some research actually yesterday and it was saying that 50% of employees in The US don't know why their work matters. They don't know how to attach it to a company goal. So it's really leading to a lot of disengagement at work.
We're just checking off tasks. We're just checking our email. We're just answering the the team's messages that they come along, but we don't know why our work really matters. So when I think about purpose driven, it's not so much to get, like, very woo woo about it, but it's really about why does this work matter? What's the impact that we're trying to make personally and at an organization and as an organization? Because there's a lot of cool stuff we're trying to accomplish. But if people know why it matters, they're so much more motivated to do it.
Avish Parashar
And it's funny. I had, someone on the pod recently who you also know, Greg Offner. Sure. And he's got something similar he talks about as be the cause and how so I'm hearing this common theme. Anytime I talk to someone, he talks about organizational efficiency, productivity, goals, achievement. There's this sort of common thing in there about understanding the why you're doing it. And it could be the why organization, like, how is what you're doing gonna benefit the organization, but it could also be personal.
Like, maybe maybe I don't care that much about the why. Maybe the organization has done a good job, but I can still find meaning and and, purpose individually. Right?
Sarah Ohanesian
So Totally.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. So why let's start with a couple questions. Why is that number so high? Is it is it just that people don't take the time to learn? Is it organizations and everything? Like, why why do that many people not know why they're doing the work they're doing?
Sarah Ohanesian
Well, one, I think we we don't we don't think about it. So I received a great compliment from a CEO, and I was working with their whole team. And he said to me, you know what, Sarah? You gave us a gift of time to even think about this. He goes, we were just going about our business, very successful business, just doing the next thing, doing the next thing, you know, consistently growing, scaling the business, but we never really took the time to think about why this actually matters. So part of it is just taking the time to think about that in the first place. But the second part, which is really, really critical, oftentimes the leadership knows.
Oftentimes the board knows. The the CEO knows. The C suite knows. They're in the meetings where these things get discussed, but the information is not necessarily getting disseminated down the line. So, you've got people who are actually doing the work going, Oh my gosh, this feels like a slog. This feels like a thing I have to do again. I have no idea why this matters.
So a lot of times I found it's just a communication issue. We just gotta tell people why their work matters and their particular role in this project or on this task really matters.
Avish Parashar
It's it's so funny you say that because, I'm just in the middle of doing two programs. One, I did, like, a thirty minute keynote for a a credit union for the all their employees. And then this week, I'm doing a follow-up training for the managers. And the whole reason around this event and the training is they're rolling out new core values. But the way they did it is sort of the opposite of what you're saying is, like, they didn't just come up with it and then slap it up and hope people see them. It's like, no. We're gonna do an event. We're gonna tell everyone what these are, and then we're gonna train managers to, like, hear the core values.
How could you roll them out? But it is so, like, I guess, rare. I guess, people sort of think that, oh, well, if we've got these purpose, our mission has a everyone should should should know it already.
Sarah Ohanesian
On the wall in the nineties. The mission statement's up there. Just do that. You know? And but there's this real disconnect in but as my manager, the task you've asked me to do, I don't know how that connects to it. And so just connecting the dots as leaders, if we can connect the dots for people, that's to me a a win as a leader.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And I agree.
And let's let's look at it from the other angle. And I'm sure none of your clients are like this. I know none of my clients are like this.
Sarah Ohanesian
Right. We're just asking for a friend.
Avish Parashar
Hypothetically, I got this friend. No. Let's just say, that it's you got employees and it's just a job for them. Like, maybe the the grand mission of your company is to sell more widgets. Employee doesn't care that much about it. It's not like a life changing widget. It's just a nice to have type thing like, oh, cool. Mhmm. How can we still get the the purpose driven productivity when, you know, maybe the mission of the organization isn't like something you, like alright.
For example, they went out of business, so I can say this. There was, it was a great job. I love the job. I love people I work with, but I worked for one of those, like, gold redeeming places. Mhmm. It's, you know, where you, like, get a little box and you mail in your gold and, you know, they they give you a quote, like, here's how much you get back. Now, if I really dug deep, I could be, like, oh, these people's lives are changing because they're making but, you know, really, at the end of the day, I was making some money doing computer programming to support my my other dream.
So which I guess I sort of answered the question.
Sarah Ohanesian
That's it. I was gonna say you just answered it.
Avish Parashar
But there there's a there's a follow-up question now, but let's just start first. So let's just say the the the company's mission doesn't necessarily inspire you or motivate you. How do you still kinda get purpose driven productivity?
Sarah Ohanesian
Well, I think like, I'm joking, but you did really just answer it. It's like, what is that thing that will motivate you? So one of the questions I ask my clients is what motivates you?
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Sarah Ohanesian
And a lot of them have not thought about that before. And what I'm trying to get at is, do you do you wanna just make some money? Like, that is an okay answer. I think we shy away from, like, I just wanna be able to pay the bills, make some money, and and and take the weekend off. I mean, that's fine. So it's it doesn't have to be this big lofty thing, but it's a it's a opportunity for you to tap in to be like, what motivates me? What's gonna make me actually wanna get up in the morning and go to work? And if you wanna just go and make some money and make as many widgets as you can that day, great.
Just go be the best version of that. So I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves that it has to be this big lofty save the world type of goal. It it doesn't. And so I I hope that actually relieves some pressure for people.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And I read that, like, it's if you're if you love to to travel or have a hobby, then you look at your job. If you're not passionate about the work or about the the mission of the company, like, oh, but this is what I'm doing to fund these other things Mhmm. And to kinda tie them tie them together. So what about people you said a lot of people like, oh, they never heard that question or never thought about it. And it's weird. Right? I've been in this kind of personal development life space for over twenty years.
And I still am trying to figure this question out, like, weirdly enough. Right? And it's weird as a speaker, you know, so many speakers get it because I've got this life mission to change this and that. I'm like, I don't know. I like doing this and so what is your advice for because I assume a lot of people when you ask them that are I don't know. Mhmm. So what is your advice?
I mean, mean, it's probably a really big question. So just to kinda get them started, what's your advice to help people start answering that question?
Sarah Ohanesian
Well, one of the things I'm looking at is and it's very specific, is what is the thing that makes you actually do the work? So let's say you've got task a, b, and c, you know, of sitting on your desk, sitting on your computer, staring at you. How do you decide which one to do? So for some people, it's, oh, it's the one that I told someone I was gonna do. So I'm I am very motivated by, not I don't wanna let anybody else down.
Avish Parashar
Yep.
Sarah Ohanesian
One of it could be, you know, I've if I put a piece of paper on my desk with a thing written on it, I will do it because I hate clutter. And that's gonna motivate me. Or I hate when my email has unread messages. So that's gonna be the thing. So I start with a very, very basic level with people of just what's gonna make you actually pull the trigger on doing that thing because it's it's really different for everybody.
Avish Parashar
Interesting. And so let's just say, hypothetically, you got a friend out there, who is so as soon as you said, I'm like, oh, yeah. That's me. Who is very motivated by external response. Like, I will I am incredibly lazy. I procrastinate a whole lot, but I almost never miss a deadline. Because for me, if someone else is waiting for something, I'm good.
It's why I was a really good employee, because I would always get the stuff done because, you know, the boss wanted us. So let's say I figured out that's my that's the first thing I do. So what's the next step? Right? This is this is me. That's what I get attack first. What's kind of the next step?
What'd you figure out what your first task is?
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. So then we design your system, really your productivity system around that. So that means if you're the if you're the person that, you need to be held accountable, then we need to get you an accountability partner. Or we need to make sure that you're accountable to someone for those deadlines. If you work for someone, you know, that can be a boss, that can be a manager. If it's somebody else, finding a friend. If you're an entrepreneur, certainly, accountability partners are really helpful in our space as well.
If it's someone who loves to see the paper, they want the paper on their desk and they want to rip the paper at the end of the day because they finish those tasks, then let's design it around that. If you want to use a digital tool and you love to check the box off the digital tool, Jeff and I use Asana and a unicorn flies across the screen when you complete a task, like, lovely.
Have that moment. So it's kind of backing it in because what you'll what I find is people come to me and they say, what's the best productivity app? What's the best tool? What's the best planner? What's what's the best thing that I can be doing? I I don't know the answer to that for you because it has to be really specific for you and what's gonna actually motivate you to take an action.
Avish Parashar
And I I really love and appreciate you're talking about this. I do feel that way. I've been because I've had issues with procrastination and and discipline and self discipline things, I've read, like, every not every. I've read a lot of productivity books and goal setting books and things like that. Mhmm. And so many of them do take the approach of here's what you do. You start your day.
You eat the frog first thing in the morning because that's what you got to do. Or line your items up and put it in your calendar to make sure you get it done. And it's just so many, like, so, like Rigid. Rigid. Yes. That's the word. Yeah. And I love that you're put because I talk about this a little bit.
With improv, it's about figuring out, like, who you are. I call saying yes and to yourself and what are your strengths and what drives you. And I I very much appreciate you're doing that. So how do you if you've so you're gonna go work with, let's say, a team of people. I I think that's it's probably easy to help someone do that if it's one on one. Right? Because you can really dig in.
But if you're working with a team, which I know you do a lot of, like, training and workshops and speaking, how do you kinda help them do that in a in a group environment?
Sarah Ohanesian
Well, I love when I can do a longer workshop with a team because we can actually go in there. And and like I referenced, that CEO that said, you gave us the gift of time to actually think about this. Mhmm. Because a lot of people don't take even twenty minutes to think about how do I want to see my tasks? Like like literally on the computer or on a piece of paper. How do I want to see tasks? How does that trigger my brain to prioritize those same tasks?
So, when I work with a team, what can be really helpful is, alright, as a group, how are we deciding what's the most important thing? How are we deciding what's the most impactful thing? How are we gonna communicate that information to each other? And then as an individual, then you can go off and do it the way that you need to But to make some of those decisions as a group is really, really powerful. So I'll give you one example. Jeff and I, one of our, lines of businesses, we set up Asana, which is a task management software, and we set that up for teams. And what we were finding was it's not one size fits all.
So you can go out and buy an Asana template. Be easy. You can download them for free from Asana. Mhmm. But what we were finding was teams were saying, well, I need to see my work like this. Another team needs to see their work in a totally different way. So we actually have to be adapting these productivity tools to actually fit the type of work.
And then also, this leads into the different brains on the team that we're working.
Avish Parashar
Right. Right. And I'm gonna get to that in a minute, but I have a a question kind of follow-up on that. And I don't know if you encounter this with the people you work with, but I find maybe because I've looked into this stuff for so long, my there's a part of my brain that gets very rigid of the well, this is how you're supposed to do it. Right? This is what the experts say. This is what the people who who claim to be super productive do.
And then on the other side of my brain is, but here's how I like to do it. And anytime I do it the way I like to do it, it goes better. And yet, I often find myself not doing it that way because I'm like, well, here's how I'm supposed to do it. Yes. And, I mean, do you encounter that with people you work with and what advice do you have for, like, overcoming that?
Sarah Ohanesian
Every day. Every day.
Part of what I I feel like I do is I give people permission to do it the way that's going to work for them. So when people come to me, it's what's the tool? What's the best way to do that? How should I color code my calendar? It's like as if the flamingo color is gonna make you take action over picking the grape color. Like, it color coding the calendar isn't solving the problem.
Avish Parashar
I've been there.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. But people spend a lot of time adjusting these things and fixing the tool. And if I make the appointments purple, that will help me. But it's really not the tool. It's about what's that internal motivation back to knowing that why why it matters, and then knowing what's actually going to work for you. Now, I've found that my role is often to give people permission to help them design the system. We still need a system.
We still need a process. We still need a good way to do this, but let's design it in a way that actually works for you, the reality of your role, the expectations that, you you know, your employer has for this role, and how your brain actually works. Like, that's gonna be successful for you.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. I love that. I see what the process too is, like, trial trial and error. Like, here's my thing is gonna work for me. And it's amazing how people go into that, like, trial and error approach and then immediately get rigid again. Like, well, I'm gonna try this new method, and then they just stick with that new method even when it's not working.
Sarah Ohanesian
Right. Right. And it's it's when when you fall off the wagon essentially with some of these really strict and rigid processes and ways to do things, I find that people get very deflated. It's almost like, you know, we're we're going on a diet and if we eat one French fry, we think, well, we might as well eat the whole chocolate cake.
It's like, no. No. One French fry would have been fine.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. It's And it it's
Sarah Ohanesian
so funny because this is more talking. Cake.
Avish Parashar
You are describing exactly me in this moment because like many people, I get fired up for the new year, and I come in. I figured out here's what I need to do and not without getting to and this might tie into the neurodiversity piece later as I really figured I I have a brain issue when it comes to dopamine and the quick dopamine hits. And so I said the biggest year, I'm going to, like, control my dopamine, which means in the morning, I don't check email. I don't get on any social media until I've, you know and the first, like, two weeks of the year, two or three weeks were great. And then life happened, and then I started getting disrupted because there were snow days. And then for about three straight weeks, someone was in my house was sick or not. And in those moments, my discipline went down and I did a lot of surfing.
And I would just feel terrible at the end of the day and I wouldn't get stuff done. Yeah. And I felt that exact deflated feeling you're talking about where and I know in the past, I would have been just eventually gone back to my old baseline. And this year, I'm now just today is like the first day literally where I haven't checked any social media today. And it's and it is hard. It's just remembering that it's like an experiment.
It's a process. Mhmm.
Sarah Ohanesian
Giving yourself some grace to be like, it's okay if I checked social media for five minutes, I can still get myself back on track. Like Right.
Avish Parashar
In
Sarah Ohanesian
the next five minutes, I could do something more productive. And and so what I have found with these intense, like, solutions and gurus that have these massive processes for people, it's just some of them work, and for some people, they work beautifully. Mhmm. But I have found that there are people that just need a little more gray area with it to make it actually work for them. And it all comes back to in real life. Right? Yes. I I mentioned to you when we hopped on, my dog got sprayed by a skunk last night. Right? So I had a plan for today, and now we're at the groomers and the vet and buying skunk off at the, you know, pet store this morning.
So I I think so often, we let those moments, those fires that happen, those things that pop up serve as almost permission for us to go do some other bad behaviors.
Avish Parashar
Oh, a %.
Sarah Ohanesian
We can reset. And, like, I can still have a productive afternoon. The dogs are the groomers.
It'll be fine. Like, I have a headache.
My house smells. But I can still have a a productive afternoon.
Avish Parashar
Right. It is kinda like when you're like, oh, I ate, like, five Doritos. Yeah. Well, I've blown it, so I may as well eat the whole bag.
Sarah Ohanesian
Exactly. Exactly. I get it.
And so that's what I try to help people do. Like, let's design something that works for real life, that works for the role you're in. And if you fall off the wagon and you you misstep a little bit, it's completely fine because with the next decision, you can get right back on track.
Avish Parashar
And I would think that this is where taking that time and space upfront to identify your purpose and identify what is important matters. Because then when you do sort of fall off instead of then being like, alright. Let me get back on track and not being sure where to go and having this random task move. Okay. Well, let me let me recenter and be like, alright. Here's what I'm focused on. Let me get back to that thing.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing I'll add with that that's really critical is the season that you're in right now.
So you might say, okay. We're we're gonna work on this sprint of a project for the for we're going into spring. We're gonna work on that for the spring. That's gonna be the season that I'm in. That's gonna be my main focus. That's gonna be my main why.
You could even have two or three. But then in the summer, when that's finished, I'm gonna switch and focus into something else for that season. So I also think people are very strict around, like, well, for the rest of time, like, I'm never gonna eat Doritos again for the rest of time. I'm never having gluten again.
Like, not probably probably you will. Like
Avish Parashar
Alright. Well, let's let's then let's let's shift back into, some some free coaching for Raveesh here. Sure. Because well, you were again describing me because every book about achieving anything, any program on anything is always talking about consistency.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yes.
Avish Parashar
It's like Yes. Yes. Write an hour a day, make sure you do this every and so but I probably because some of the neurodiversity and this and that, I'm more of a wind sprinter. Like, I can go all in on something for, like, two to six weeks Mhmm. And then I taper off.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And all that does is make me feel guilty and bad because I'm like, oh. And every day, I don't I don't do the activity because I've tapered off, but I feel bad about it.
Sarah Ohanesian
Right. The guilt is something that people aren't talking about.
Avish Parashar
Yes. And so how does how do you recommend people in general slash me specifically?
Because it there's, like, a pressure builds up. Number one, if I just focus on this, number one, while I'm not doing those other things, the pressure builds up in my brain. Like Mhmm. You've got 20 projects you wanna get done this year, which is a prominent of itself. And if I only focus on one, which I know is a smart way, my brain's like, oh, but what about this? Yeah. And then number two, how, like, how do you overcome that inner desire, overcome that inner, like, I should be consistent versus, like, let me just do this for six weeks then move on to the next thing and then come back to this maybe in three, four months when I'm fresh again with it.
Sarah Ohanesian
Right. And now I'll push back to, like, this goes back to the why. What are you trying to accomplish in the season that you're in and why does it matter? So we're both speakers. You know, perhaps we're going into the spring season. That's typically a very busy season for us as speakers. Maybe there's a new keynote you need to deliver.
Maybe there's a new workshop you're trying to create. Focusing on that. Essentially putting that project on a pedestal for the next few weeks so you can really see it through. You can really feel good about it. You can really get it across the finish line and then it's ready to give to clients in the spring. And then in the summer, work on something else. So consistency is important, but I would always sprinkle it in with a flavor of what's your most impactful task that you've got in the season that you're in right now.
Avish Parashar
So, like, consistently working an hour a day, but what you are specifically working on might change for the season.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Avish Parashar
That makes I like that. That makes sense. And you mentioned something a couple times with that one client, and there was another phrase. And I think the sort of ties in because, like, figuring out what these things are is about giving them that space and one of just one of the jobs you do is just like giving and there's a phrase you use, which is you leave space for magic.
Sarah Ohanesian
Mhmm.
Avish Parashar
And I wonder if you could explain what you mean by that because that does tie into some stuff I talk about because I wanna hear your sort of what you mean by that first.
Sarah Ohanesian
Sure. Well, I I love I love calling it leave space for magic. Sometimes in full honesty that means the fires. Right? Sometimes that means, like, your dog got sprayed by a skunk and you gotta deal with that. But it is about having a little bit of white space on your calendar.
And ideally, it's for magic. It's ideally for those opportunities that we didn't know are are coming. It's for when your friend calls and says, I've got extra tickets to, you know, go see a Vicious comedy show tonight. Do you wanna go with me? And you can say yes. So, so often we are packed into the schedule. You know, when you when I most people when I do their calendar audit, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Back to back meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting, meeting. They don't have time to have lunch, no less do anything fun. So do we have a little space for a new client came in and this is gonna be a really cool project. Do you even have time to work on that or Or consider working on that? A speaking opportunity comes up. Do you even have time to say yes to that, to work on that thing? So it's just about having enough white space in the calendar that we can actually fit a couple of extra things in because we're so over scheduled and so over programmed.
Our answer to the magic is always gonna be no.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And and I do agree with that completely. How can a can an employee create space for magic? Because those meetings are often scheduled for them. They're required to do them. So is this only something that can be affected top down or is there some way an employee who's like, I wanna create space my calendar for magic, but they've got me in meetings all day. How is there a way they
Sarah Ohanesian
can control it? Well and, again, I think this depends on company culture. So, hopefully, this hopefully, we've got some leaders listening today that can bring this to their teams. But what I would encourage people to do is actually block that time on your calendar. Mark yourself as busy. So this is two two areas that I see. One is to have time to do your most impactful work, so an actual work block where you think, okay.
I'm really good first thing in the morning. That's the time I should block out to do my most impactful work. Or I'm really good in the afternoon. That's the time that I should pick. But having that space to actually do the work because the meetings just create more and more and more work. We need time to actually do the work. And then, second, having a block of time.
And it could be it could be like a Friday afternoon. I'm just gonna leave a little bit of space for magic on a Friday afternoon just to see what I could work on that might be a little more inspiring this week. So, I would say as hard as it is and as much as you think you can't, try to control your schedule. Actually block that time. Book the appointment with yourself Mhmm. So that no one else can schedule time during that exact time.
Avish Parashar
I love that. Just just make yourself unavailable and then because I Yeah. I did sort of like, it's been a while since I've been in the corporate world. So I did forget that people can sort of see your calendar and schedule meetings based on what you're
Sarah Ohanesian
showing as your availability.
Avish Parashar
So if you just make yourself unavailable, then you'll you'll free that space up.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. And the other thing that I love, Avish, is when when you know the why, you know why this task or this project matters, you know that this is the most important thing, what's kinda cool that happens is let's say you've got something impactful on your calendar for 9AM. It's important to you. It matters. It matters to the company. It matters to our goals. So when I come and I say, hey.
Can I meet with you at 09:15? You now have this really helpful metric that says, yeah, Sarah. That is more important. That is more impactful than the thing that I was going to do, or it's not. Can we talk at 11:00 instead?
And it doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you mean. You're just saying, I'm just doing this, you you know, kind of, like, scale of my priorities right now, and it's a real way to help you make a very quick judgment call.
Avish Parashar
And what I find so interesting about that is there's this weird, like and and it's probably worse for me as we talk about, like, the because my motivation is, like, pleasing people. Mhmm. But what's weird is we you feel almost hesitant just to simply ask or to push back. Because I got to have it all the time. Someone's like, oh, can we do this meeting at, you know, 01:00 next Wednesday? And I'm looking at them like, I was gonna do this that day, but I'm like, oh, this client want let's it's amazing how simple it is. We feel it's like, they just probably arbitrarily threw that time out there.
And if you're just like Yes. That doesn't work great for me.
Can we do 02:00 instead? 90% of the time, they're like, oh, yeah. Sure. But we have this internal monologue dialogue going. We're like, oh, they're gonna think less of me if I'm not available when they want.
Sarah Ohanesian
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it and and I think, again, when you know that on your calendar, you were gonna work on project a, it really helps you to say, oh my gosh. Yeah. Forget project a. This new thing you've got we've got space for magic.
This thing's really cool. I want to do that instead. Or no. Project a is still the most important thing I'm gonna work on today. You you can't have that time slot. You can have another one.
Avish Parashar
So along those lines, how do you balance or how do you find help your clients balance the short term versus long term? Right? This is sort of the the Eisenhower important urgent thing. Yep. And to have the discipline in the moment. Right? Because a lot of the things most of these I procrastinate are stuff that's, you know, gonna help me in a year, like writing this new book or working on this new keynote, like I said.
And so as someone when I can do the external deadline thing, I that's a system I've changed. I don't worry about working on new keynote material anymore until I have a gig coming up. Mhmm. You know, for a while, I was like, hey. I got I don't have a I don't have a new keynote coming up for, like, six months.
I gotta work on no. Never got done. Yeah. But for some things, there's no there's never gonna
Sarah Ohanesian
be an
Avish Parashar
extra deadline. Right. So when it comes to that block, of time, you're like, well, I could work on this thing that's gonna pay off in six months. Or my email inbox has now 35 more emails that are demanding my attention. So how do you do you have any tips for maintaining that discipline to to when you set aside the time to do the long term work that you actually do the long term work?
Sarah Ohanesian
Mhmm. Well, that goes back to that. Why again is it's like it's gotta it's gotta matter enough for you and and you really can't fake this. So Jeff and I have talked about this a lot. What is a deadline? Like, what is a due date? Mhmm. And is a due date real?
So sometimes it is. That keynote is April 15. I have to deliver that keynote on that date. That is a hard deadline. Other times, it's what you're talking about. If I worked on that in April, it would be fine, but it could also be June.
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Sarah Ohanesian
So, it's about thinking about what are those deadlines. And if you're someone who's motivated by a deadline, give yourself a deadline and also give yourself an accountability partner. Give yourself a tool. Give yourself a speaking gig. Like, get it on the calendar so that you have that deadline. So sometimes with deadlines, we've gotta make it real. Like, actually real.
Because if it's not, it's very easy. So I would say break them down. Think about those smaller goals that you have within that bigger project and give yourself some, like, actionable real hardcore deadlines for that. Right.
Avish Parashar
And this of course, I ask these questions, but it all comes back back to you on the first two things you said, which is understanding how you work, what motivates you, and then using that and understanding your why. You know? It's like one is having a why that's big enough to make you do the work.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yes.
Avish Parashar
And the other is having processes that fit your personality. If the why is not big enough in that case, you'll still do the work, I guess, you know, for a while. Yeah.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's two things that two things at play.
Avish Parashar
I like that. That's great. Alright. I do wanna talk about that that neurodiversity thing, but first, I and I don't know if you find this, but one thing I wanna comment on is the space for magic. What I also find is when we leave breathing room, that's also when we get our that gives us time to unlock our creativity. Yeah. Because, you know, I talk this whole thing about creativity and about silence and empty mind, and that's when you get that's when you can actually hear your creative ideas. Mhmm. And I think the same thing applies, like, having space in your calendar.
Not only is, like, if an opportunity comes by, I can say yes to it, but also just gives your own mind to, like, oh, I'm not being stimulated right now. And and and I find that actually makes people more engaged and more productive when they have that that space in the calendar.
Sarah Ohanesian
For sure. For sure. I think if you're someone, especially if you're creative, if you think get your best ideas when you're driving, when you're in the shower, essentially, when you can't be in a in a meeting, although I guess you can with Zoom in the car, but just
Avish Parashar
Maybe not in the shower.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. So, maybe the shower is the only safe place left. But if you come out of the shower or the longer drive and you think, oh my gosh, I had so many ideas. That's probably a signal there's there's not enough white space in your day to actually do that creative work. Because it's like, it's trying to get out and that's the only time it can do it.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And that's the stuff that's gonna have sometimes the biggest long term payoff is the new creative idea, not the checking off the task. But, oh, here's something can change the whole process or or tap into that motivation. You know, what is it really that motivates me?
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. Yeah. And I'll give you one more tip here, Avish. It's really around I call this the the quicksand conundrum because sometimes we're we're stuck in quicksand. And what I mean by that is we're working on tasks that seem like they're the right task, but they're not. They're the wrong task. And they're disguised as the right task.
And so what happens is we're actually working harder. We're we're doing more. We're like, I gotta get back to my emails. Like, we're working on things that don't actually move the needle, but they are real work. Like, you're working. If someone looked at you, they would say, Amish, you worked all day.
Avish Parashar
Mhmm.
Sarah Ohanesian
But are you doing the right things toward those bigger goals? And that's really a question.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. And that's that's a tough one, I think, for people to answer, but it is so because you you the line you talk about is the difference between business and productivity.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And it's easy. And it's great. You're checking items off your to do list, so you feel like, look at how much progress I've made.
Sarah Ohanesian
Dopamine hit. Dopamine hit.
Avish Parashar
Dopamine hit. Exactly?
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And it you know, so, oh, this day, I got 20 things out of my task list. This day, I only got one thing done, but maybe that one thing is the productive thing and those 20 things were the the busy thing.
Sarah Ohanesian
Exactly.
Avish Parashar
And that takes that again, self reflection and the why and all going back to the the beginning. Yeah. So a lot of this is about then kinda what works for you. So let's talk a little bit about the the the option you said, the Tendo, the, the neurodiversity thing you do with with Jeff as well.
So you're doing programs kind of helping organizations see, again, kinda we talked about, like, it's not one size fits all. Mhmm. Everyone's different and everyone's brain works differently, and how can you sort of honor that and also turn that into a, like, a competitive advantage almost. Right?
Sarah Ohanesian
Yes. Totally.
Avish Parashar
Could you share a little bit about that work that you do?
Sarah Ohanesian
Sure. And and the way that it came about and and and, I have permission to to share this from Jeff, but I am neurotypical, which means my brain is just the most mathematically, it's just the most common brain type that exists.
It's like an average brain. Now Jeff's has ADHD and autism. And so what that means is in our work together, I was just noticing that I would literally see something or interpret something or perceive something a completely different way than his was. Like, we're looking at the same thing, and I'm seeing this and he's seeing that. And so over time, I just started asking we just started talking about it. And I was like, how does this show up for you? How do you think about this?
How does this work? Like, why can't you manage your test that way when I manage them a different way? Mhmm. And so we just really opened up this conversation. And what we realized was that this is actually our strength. We're bringing two completely different perspectives. We're thinking about it from totally different angles.
So when we're designing a productivity tool for a client, oh my gosh. This is actually this is our competitive advantage. So, we started talking about it with clients. In sales meetings, we started sharing it. And people on the calls were going, Oh, my gosh. I'm resonating so much with Jeff.
Oh, my gosh. I'm resonating so much with Sarah. Multiple people on the same call.
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Sarah Ohanesian
And so, they were then coming back to us and saying, We're picking you out of all the other vendors we could have picked because of this. Because you're recognizing that there's different brains on our team. And you don't need a diagnosis to know that there are just different brains on your team. And so I think that's the cool part. We're not saying, hey, please raise your hand if you have autism. No. We're not saying that.
We're saying just as a leader, when you're struggling with someone, when you're thinking, I just wish Avish could do it the way that I want him to do it or see it the way that I see it. Instead of just pounding and and saying, you know, see it the way that I see it. Do it the way that I need you to do it. Do it the way I want you to do it. Asking the question of how does this work for you? How does this look for you? How are you seeing this information?
And realizing that your brain is different than mine, it it changes everything. Everything.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. It's it's interesting because with, you know, my old topic is saying yes and instead of yes. But and to me, this is one of the it's exactly that type of thing. It's like the the yeah, but, do it my way Mhmm. Versus the yes and let me dig deeper and kinda learn how how you do it. And it's so weird because I think if you ask anyone on the planet, does everyone think differently?
Does everyone work differently? Then I'll be like, yeah. Yeah. But when it comes to, like, work and how I want to get things done, that whole understanding and the empathy and the compassion goes out the window.
Sarah Ohanesian
Out the window.
Avish Parashar
And it's like, this is the way to do it because this is the way I've done it. I've had success with it. And that creates friction. That creates the burnout. Right? That creates also busyness. Right? Because forcing someone to operate in a manner not aligned with their nature Mhmm.
They're gonna be less productive Right. And more stressed. So how do you how do you break through that with the managers? Because some of them are lawyers the way I've always done it.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. Well well, one is just awareness. I mean, this this topic is it's obviously been around for since since brains came to be, really. Yeah. But it it's so new in terms of what we know about it and the research that's coming out about it. So this topic of neurodiversity, I would say 50% of people we talk to are still saying, oh, cool. Do you mind telling me what neurodiversity is?
So if if that's you today, I mean, don't feel bad. This is still a new thing that people are learning about. So for Jeff and I, our first mission is just raise awareness. Let's just raise awareness that every brain on your team is different. And 20% of the brains on your team are neurodivergent, meaning they have autism, ADHD, OCD, some kind of neurodivergent condition. Twenty percent. And so that is very eye opening for people.
So first, that's our that's our first thing. Let's just raise awareness. Let's just talk about this. Let's just bring up the fact that, by the way, there's different brands on your team.
Avish Parashar
That's great. Alright. So this has been fantastic. I got a couple more things I wanna ask you about.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
Before I get into that though, I'm sure people listening now would love to learn more about you, potentially, get your help in a one on one or a course standpoint or potentially for their team organization. So if you wanna learn, number one, if you wanna learn more about you and your offerings, where should they go?
And what kind of different ways do you? Because we didn't get that in the beginning. We didn't get so specifically into it. So what are some ways people can work with you or get your help?
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah. Sure. So my website is so-productive. com, and s o is also my initial. So it's a double double meeting there, and I want you to be so productive. So so -productive. com. My favorite thing to do with people, and I call this a sync up with Sarah, is just book time with me.
Let's just let's just chat. It's not a sales call.
I'm not gonna sell you anything. I promise. It's just a time for us to chat and get to know you. Sometimes that does lead to, you know, coaching is certainly an option. We do one on one coaching. We have a digital course. And I love doing productivity consulting where I can come in, my my team can come in, we can actually interview everybody on the team or everybody in the organization and really find out what are those productivity pressure points?
What are those things that are causing friction on your team? What are those cracks in the process? Are those things that we're noticing are causing some inefficiencies?
And I'm just looking for themes. We're looking for those themes that like, I'm never gonna say, Oh, Avish said this, but rather there was six of 10 people on your team who mentioned this. That's potentially a pressure point that we should deal with. So that's the that's the consulting arm. And then sarah ohanneson dot com, that's where you can find all my keynotes and workshops.
Avish Parashar
Alright. Fantastic. And we're gonna link to those things, below. So if you're listening, you're a leader, a CEO, you know, HR manager, and you're like, I would love but it sounds like a lot of work. Well, you can you know, you guys you will do the heavy lifting of of breaking a lot of that analysis down. So, fantastic. So two questions.
One, I love the so productive because it's, you know, ties into initials and it's so productive. It's and I I'm curious. When did you figure that out? As in was it one of those things like this oh, my initials are so. I can tie that into a brand. Is that something, like, that people have been joking about since you were a kid, or is it just like you were in business for, like, twenty years then you're like, oh, that is so fucked up. Because sometimes the obvious thing, we just completely mispronounce.
Sarah Ohanesian
See it. Right. Well, it it did happen pretty early on, and my husband came up with it. So credit to my husband, Ben, for coming up with it. I I think one of the things I was very mindful of at the beginning is, you know, a lot of people start their business and it's sarahhannison. com. Mhmm. I wanted it to be a business that didn't necessarily need me doing every single piece of it.
I know this work is so impactful. I know there are so many people that need our help. So from the very beginning, I wanted this to be a team. And and so productive is a team of really talented individuals who can do that work. So it happened early on because consciously, I didn't necessarily want it to be just my name. Mhmm. But I certainly love when he came up with it like that. Oh, yeah.
That that's cool because it's me, but not entirely.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. It's nice when that kinda clicks like that. You're like, oh, that makes total sense. Everything kind of aligns. It's such a cool name with your with your name and the the business name just
Sarah Ohanesian
Thank you.
Avish Parashar
So cool that aligns like that. Alright. So last question. I'd like to end all my interviews like this. So I you gotta talk about saying yes and and I have this honest belief that the world would be a better place if everyone just started with a default mindset of yes and instead of yes but. I think people be kinder, more respectful, more compassionate. So what is one small thing you believe that if everyone did, it would just make the world a better place?
Just what's a small thing, you know, it doesn't need to be like, oh, go out and, like, you know, do a hundred hours of community service. And what's a small thing? If everyone did, the world would just be nicer, better, whatever.
Sarah Ohanesian
Well, I and this is taken from what Jeff and I talk about so much is just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong.
Avish Parashar
So if everyone just had that mindset, I agree. That's great. That would so it'll probably solve so many problems before they even got started.
Sarah Ohanesian
Mhmm. Yeah. And I think the the second part of that is if you're curious about that. So when something is different, instead of blaming that person or thinking that person is wrong, just ask them about it. And that that's what that's what happened to Jeff and I. And the the yes, and that came from that has been a whole other side of our business. And now we do keynotes and workshops in this space.
And so I think you you never know what other opportunities that's gonna unleash for you, which is really cool. So if you're just open minded about those differences, I I think, you know, kinda like there's unlimited potential there as well.
Avish Parashar
Yeah. I love that. I think it was, to paraphrase like an Einstein quote, he's like, you either believe the universe is hostile or friendly.
Sarah Ohanesian
Yeah.
Avish Parashar
And depending on your perspective, that changes completely like how you are. But it's you're here. Like, someone does something different. Well, I can be upset at it. I can yes butt it. Or I can just get curious and see where it leads and
Sarah Ohanesian
Totally. And that doesn't mean it's not always frustrating or challenging, but certainly.
Avish Parashar
Yeah.
Sarah Ohanesian
But I think always leading with that and, like, I'm just wanna find out more about this. That's how I
Avish Parashar
That's That's fantastic. I do think the world will be a better place if people did that. Thank you so much for the great conversation, great tips, the free coaching. So if you wanna learn more about Sarah, check out her or website, so -productive. com or sarah0hannesian,uh,. com. And I will link to both of those in the show notes.
Sarah, thank you so much, for being on. This was great.